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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 12:55 am |
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FatPappy wrote:
The CCs have made a mockery o' open government an' have insulted the decency an' intelligence o' the people o' Summerfield an' continue to do so. Not near 'nuff said, in my opinion.
Pappy, I rather agree with your conclusion.
But instead of trying to engage the adversary in worthless dialogue (and it is worthless for the simple reason that the adversary does not share your values), doesn't it make more sense to get your message out to the people who do share your values, i.e., the voters?
Neither you, nor me, nor anyone else here is going to change the minds of the CC's and the two minority council persons. But those are only a handful of votes anyway. It cannot be stressed enough, that the larger audience of voters is the only audience deserving of factual and truthful information and if the majority group fails to share and inform the voters then rest assured, the vacuum WILL be FILLED by the tactics, however distasteful and the CC group propaganda, no matter how untruthful and unreliable.
Think of all of this simply as a political contest with rather large consequences, but with the final result to be determined not by which group can shout the loudest nor taunt the most, but by which group can connect most effectively with the voters and earn THEIR TRUST.
Sadly and unfortunately, the majority of those Summerfield voters are out there and not here on the NWO Forum. Hence my comments about preaching to the choir. I would also urge caution not to publish nor broadcast strategies and political plans here or in any public medium. The other side doesn't. Why should you? Keeping THEM guessing is not a bad political strategy either.
The essence of the message to Summerfield voters is and rightfully should be: TRUST.
Whom do THEY TRUST to serve their (political) INTERESTS in the days ahead. That is the question, and it is up to each of you and the majority group to provide the answers to the voters. Rest assured, if you don't, the other side will.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 11:59 am by Jim Flynt
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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 11:31 am |
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Mr Jim, your ol' Pappy appreciates you stirrin' thangs up. I think your comments have a lot o' merit an' have given us somethin' to think seriously about.
But when you say the forum has no effect an' nobody beyond these cyber walls hears us, I have to say your asusmptions is writin' checks yer facts cain't cash. The forum people are speakin' about what's REAL to them. They're speakin' from the heart. Their opnions have a power an' a legitimacy that cain't be faked, bought, or sold.
Pappy may be so old an' slow that I can walk faster than I can run, but I know powerful words have an effect way beyond their birthplace. Powerful words like to travel. They may move slow like Pappy, but when they get there, you know they're in town! Yee Haw!
Now, I know an' I figger we all know the forum ain't the be-all an' end-all o' political thought. I agree there needs to be somethin' else beyond it. We'll see, I reckon.
Meanwhile, much obliged, ol' buddy fer keepin' us on our toes!
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 12:11 pm |
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FatPappy wrote:
But when you say the forum has no effect an' nobody beyond these cyber walls hears us, I have to say your asusmptions is writin' checks yer facts cain't cash. The forum people are speakin' about what's REAL to them. They're speakin' from the heart. Their opnions have a power an' a legitimacy that cain't be faked, bought, or sold.
Pappy may be so old an' slow that I can walk faster than I can run, but I know powerful words have an effect way beyond their birthplace. Powerful words like to travel. They may move slow like Pappy, but when they get there, you know they're in town! Yee Haw!
Pappy, I agree with your comments wholeheartedly, especially as (I) outlined and in bold above. It was never my intention to stifle the sharing of thoughts, ideas and opinions here on the Forum amongst friends, but rather to point out the fruitless effort to rein in either the presence or the behavior of the adversary (you see I don't want to flatter them by elevating them to recognition by calling them by their names).
Sometime over the Holidays I will try and sit down and reduce to writing a much broader view of how we get from here to there, and from my perspective, it is hardly important whether or not the adversary chooses to follow or simply allows the world to pass them by.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 01:20 pm by Jim Flynt
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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 01:38 pm |
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Naw, Mr Jim, I didn't think you were tryin' to stifle the forum. Just don't ask me to read no REALPOLITIK book or nuthin'. Hee hee! I still disagree that the forum bears no fruit. The question of how to get from here to there depends on where your "there" is. We might be talkin' about different trails. I don't know if I trust too many fancy political theories, simply because they tend to get too far away from the people. Pappy likes it here amongst the peeps.
Lookin' forward to your Tao Te Jim when you write it!
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 02:21 pm |
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FatPappy wrote: (1) Naw, Mr Jim, I didn't think you were tryin' to stifle the forum. Just don't ask me to read no REALPOLITIK book or nuthin'. Hee hee! I still disagree that the forum bears no fruit. (2) The question of how to get from here to there depends on where your "there" is. We might be talkin' about different trails. (3) I don't know if I trust too many fancy political theories, simply because they tend to get too far away from the people. Pappy likes it here amongst the peeps.
Lookin' forward to your Tao Te Jim when you write it!
Pappy, my response to your comments follows, broken down as outlined above:
(1) I would never ask anyone to read a book on Realpolitick, only to understand that we all live in the world of realpolitick rather than some illusory fantasyland. I ask only that you see the world as it is, recognizing of course, that it is also permissible to dream of and try to engender the changes to what the world ought to be, or you wish it to be. That having been said, the political strategist must devise goal oriented strategies with some eye toward a goal or vision with the keen understanding and acceptance of the way the world really is and not how he the world should be. That is called living authentically in the world of realpolitick.
(2) Pappy, I agree with you wholeheartedly, that it is absolutely critical to a discussion to have an agreement or understanding of where "there" is so that we may either disagree on the ends or unite as a team to arrive "there" together through a community effort. (More about this specific idea in my forthcoming Tao as you label it).
(3) Pappy, what you label as 'political theory' is in a way, just another word for a common sense view of how politics and governance works. Political theory as I use the word, is simply more of a focused description of that which you already know from both your common sense and your mature observations. While I have studied political science in more formal settings, the ideas are similar if not the same.
I do agree with you that there are many trails which can and would take one from 'here' to 'there' and we may or may not agree on which trail is more likely to be the more productive one. As it has been said by the Buddha, there are many roads on the path to enlightenment. I ask only that you see that Summerfieldians will share the journey toward some collective destination even if they choose different individual paths.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 02:28 pm by Jim Flynt
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SaltyDog
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 02:24 pm |
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This may sound like I want to live in a Utopian world but I dislike the fact that most politicians highest goal seems to be getting elected. That is why they play it close to the vest, have hidden agendas and secret strategies. George W Bush can't even admit to ever making a mistake because he is afraid (and rightly so) that someone will make a political ad using a sound bite that make it look like everyting he does is a mistake.
I know this would confound the political consultants but why not state your positions, explain you goals, publicize your strategies? It's too bad it that being transparent and forthcoming with your constituents seems niaeve, unsophisticated and fruitless.
I like politicians that trust the voters - as ignorant, apathetic and stupid as the electorate can be, we still seem to get it right more often than some elitest politician who doesn't listen to us.
OK it's time for me to dismount from this high-horse that is standing on a soapbox.
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 02:39 pm |
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SaltyDog wrote: (1) This may sound like I want to live in a Utopian world but I dislike the fact that most politicians highest goal seems to be getting elected. That is why they play it close to the vest, have hidden agendas and secret strategies. George W Bush can't even admit to ever making a mistake because he is afraid (and rightly so) that someone will make a political ad using a sound bite that make it look like everyting he does is a mistake.
(2) I know this would confound the political consultants but why not state your positions, explain you goals, publicize your strategies? It's too bad it that being transparent and forthcoming with your constituents seems niaeve, unsophisticated and fruitless.
My response to your comments Salty are as follows:
(1) Again, one must accept that it is only the elected officials who are in the position of power to make change. There is no consolation prize of consultation or power which flows to the loser in a political contest. So if your goal is to effectuate change, your means would require a focus on winning the political election contest. As harsh as it might sound, in the world of Realpolitick, winning is not only everything, it is the only thing. Idealism without power remains nothing more than idealism unrealized.
(2) The political consultants are not confused at all. They understand that to embrace full disclosure would be a guaranteed method for electoral failure in the voting booths and at the hands of a generally uninformed citizenry. Full disclosure might unveil that a candidate is incompetent, immoral, unethical, lazy, self serving, or just plain and simply stupid. In other words, less is more.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 02:40 pm by Jim Flynt
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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 03:00 pm |
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Jim Flynt wrote:
(2) The political consultants are not confused at all. They understand that to embrace full disclosure would be a guaranteed method for electoral failure in the voting booths and at the hands of a generally uninformed citizenry. Full disclosure might unveil that a candidate is incompetent, immoral, unethical, lazy, self serving, or just plain and simply stupid. In other words, less is more.
There again, I have to ask, where is the "there" this leads to? Is it a good place? This sounds like destroyin' the village in order to save it. What are we left with?
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SaltyDog
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 03:07 pm |
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Full disclosure might unveil that a candidate is incompetent, immoral, unethical, lazy, self serving, or just plain and simply stupid.
Well we certainly wouldn't want any of that revealed.
What a concept - find a candidate who is not - incompetent, immoral, unethical, lazy, self serving, or just plain and simply stupid - and then fully disclose those facts.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 03:08 pm by SaltyDog
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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 03:15 pm |
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My response to Salty's post is summed up in two words: "Yee Haw!"
In Latin, "Cave Canem." (Beware the Dog!) Hee hee!
Just messin' with you, Mr JIm.
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 05:10 pm |
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FatPappy wrote:
There again, I have to ask, where is the "there" this leads to? Is it a good place?
Pappy, you are now seeing the light. Your question, "where is the 'there'" really goes to the crux of any political election. Where is it that voters want to go? Where is it that they want their leaders to lead them to? Do they wish to go move away from present conditions (change/progress) or stay right where they are (status quo).
Leaders either lead with exemplary leadership, fail to lead, lead with no direction, lead in the wrong direction or lead to a destructive destination. Therefore the answer to your question ultimately determines the "where" ('there') that the leader and followers ultimately arrive. It seems to me that the greatest failure in community leadership lies in leaders and followers either not having a vision or not sharing a vision which determines the path to their (shared) communal goals.
You ask the one question which I think is one of only three or four vital essential questions that voters should and likely do ask themselves before they decide to vote and for whom.
Last edited on Dec 12th, 2006 05:12 pm by Jim Flynt
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Steve Adkins
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Posted: Dec 12th, 2006 11:50 pm |
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Jim Flynt wrote: Pappy, you are now seeing the light. Your question, "where is the 'there'" really goes to the crux of any political election. Where is it that voters want to go? Where is it that they want their leaders to lead them to? Do they wish to go move away from present conditions (change/progress) or stay right where they are (status quo).
"If you don't know where you're goin', how are you goin' to know when you get there?"
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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 13th, 2006 02:05 am |
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Lao Tzu says, "To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect."
Pappy's feelin' very virtuous tonight.
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Cracker Jax
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Posted: Dec 13th, 2006 02:53 am |
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FatPappy wrote: Lao Tzu says, "To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect."
Pappy's feelin' very virtuous tonight.
Cracker's been feelin' very virtuous all day!
Ya'll are makin' my head spin! 
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Steve Adkins
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Posted: Dec 13th, 2006 11:00 pm |
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DOGGETTJA wrote: Important meeting tomorrow 12/14/06 Thursday 7 PM at Community building. The Phase 2 of the park will be presented to council. We need supportfor this. Understand there maybe small but vocal oposition and that there has been one of those infamous mailings done this week. I hope the Park supports will load the Community Center. Tell everybody. We only have a few more weeks until the grant has to be done or we will sit around for another year with no matching funding.
Jane is correct.
We need folks to show up en masse, and sign up to speak favorably for the park. We want a vocal majority to out number and out speak the vocal minority. We want the positive speakers to wear out SMSandra's keyboard, and wear off her fingerprints with positive comments.
Let the council know you support the park, want to see it completed, and (gasp) are delighted for your tax dollars to support it. Don't be shy......SPEAK OUT !!!!!!!!!
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