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EditorPS
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Posted: Aug 15th, 2007 11:18 pm |
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TIME OUT! I need everyone who has been a participant on this forum today to stop immediately and review the Terms of Agreement. Then if you don't abide by them, I'll know it's not because I haven't reminded you, and not because you haven't read them, rather because you chose to ignore them. And in that case, you'll be asked to leave the forum.
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dwendelken
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 01:20 am |
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Patti and all the members of this forum:
This is why I have not been participating in the forum. Jim brought out some real feelings from those who are on this forum very often. I refuse to get involved with all this negativity and will always be positive- no matter what diferences I may have with someone.
I too voiced my opinion on Tuesday and I got lableled. I will continue to go forward with a positive campaign. Unfortunately I will not be participating in this forum after reviewing the previous posts.
I am an independent thinker and would base my decisons on what would be best for all the people of Summerfield.
Don
Last edited on Aug 16th, 2007 01:31 am by dwendelken
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EditorPS
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 01:32 am |
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Hi Don,
Thanks for posting. Unfortunately, I'm afraid there is a lot of negativity in Summerfield, on AND OFF this forum, and I believe the forum simply reflects the mindframes and frustrations of some of the Summerfield residents. We'd love to hear from people with ALL DIFFERENT viewpoints but sadly, some are only open to their own views and don't want to talk or listen to anyone who might think differently from them.
Forum participants have been warned this evening to stay on topic and discuss ideas and not people; those that ignore the terms of agreement will be first asked to leave and if they can't control themselves, we'll take other steps to ensure that the forum remains civil, on-topic and productive.
We will either have civil, productive conversations or none at all. Hope you'll reconsider and join us in the former.
Last edited on Aug 16th, 2007 01:33 am by EditorPS
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 02:43 am |
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dwendelken wrote: I.....would base my decisons on what would be best for ALL the people of Summerfield.
Don, that will certainly marginalize any Summerfield fringe groups of narrow self interest.
Last edited on Aug 16th, 2007 03:05 am by Jim Flynt
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lovettrp
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 04:35 am |
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I have some thoughts that I wanted to air and I through this would be an appropriate forum. Some things that were discussed lat the last T.C. meeting that gave me great pause. I am a bit confused and maybe I misunderstood the underlying issues of two specific arguments. Each concerning a different topic but linked because of their stark contrast in their respective recommended form of settlement.
First… There was concern expressed by a board member and several citizens that the Summerfield voters would be un-informed about their choices regarding the structure and potential consequences an alternate form of local government. Additionally, I heard concerns about the possible long-term ramifications (hidden costs and the inability to remove/fire someone) that the proposed change in government would have should the referendum ballot be adopted (by council and be ratified by the local electorate). All of these concerns calling into question the will of the people and their legal right to a referendum and their ability to decide for themselves.
Next… There was concern that the “majority” voters were not heard and Council acted inappropriately when the decisions were made to move forward on the park (both the first and second phase) and the municipal building/sheriff’s substation.
REMEMBER: You can not demand that the voters be heard on one issue (the one you agree with) and silence them on an issue (the one you disagree with). If you do that (especially as a council member) you are not fulfilling your role as and elected representative. The problem about being “fair” is that it cuts both ways!
You must ask yourself…is there really a “possibility” that all voters will be un-informed? Is this a real and valid reason not to allow the referendum to proceed? (I am currently still researching the different types of government but I WILL present my personal stand on this issue shortly.) If that is truly an argument, we must therefore take it to the natural conclusion ... un-informed people therefore should not have the “right(1)” to select their government leaders, or structure their government takes. Now take that a bit further ...every voter should be required to take a knowledge test to determine their competency prior to voting (this would be a’kin to a paying a poll tax). Is this really the way people are thinking now a'days?
I feel that it is incumbent on every voter to educate themselves on the issues… something that I have said since my first post. And I trust the voters more than elected officials!!!
Assumption: If the concerns about the Park/Municipal Building-Sheriff’s substation were valid and the people were not consulted, then we must handle all major(2) changes/expenses/ decisions that affect the community the same way. The council should develop a policy of referendum. This would be a true way to let the majority be heard.
Assumption: If the Council members are afraid of losing power/responsibility as a result of the voters decisions resulting from an unfavorable result of the referendum, then the council members should oppose the referendum request … thereby turning a deaf ear to the citizens and voters in the community that complied with the state legislated ability to bring forth a referendum all the while failing to properly fulfilling your obligation as and elected representative.
Just some of my thoughts! Did I misunderstand something? Did anyone else feel this way?
(1) My understanding of the US and North Carolina Constitution we the people do not be denied the right to vote. You cannot deny the right to vote because of "race or gender. Citizens of Washington DC can vote for President; 18-year-olds can vote; you can vote even if you fail to pay a poll tax. The Constitution also requires that anyone who can vote for the "most numerous branch" of their state legislature can vote for House members and Senate members. Note that in all of this, though, the Constitution never explicitly ensures the right to vote, as it does the right to speech, for example. This is precisely why so many amendments have been needed over time - the qualifications for voters are left to the states. And as long as the qualifications do not conflict with anything in the Constitution, that right can be withheld. For example, in Texas, persons declared mentally incompetent and felons currently in prison or on probation are denied the right to vote. It is interesting to note that though the 26th Amendment requires that 18-year-olds must be able to vote, states can allow persons younger than 18 to vote, if they chose to." (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#vote)
(2) The definition of major needs to be clarified (e.g. an expense of 25% of the revenue, change of government structure, change in term length and limits).
Last edited on Aug 16th, 2007 12:08 pm by lovettrp
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DOGGETTJA
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 10:27 am |
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I think both sides assume the large unengaged majority supports their side. I personally feel that it is incumbent on us as citizens of this representative democracy, I believe we are called, to educate our selves on the issues and to express our opinions at the polls or the people representing us are not in fact representing the majority.
As an aside the Civitans are presenting an educational meeting open to the public for the purpose of educating us on the Council/manager form of government. I have not heard a date yet.
I have done my homework on this issue and it appears to me one that virtually all cities over the size of 5,000 have the council/ manager form. It becomes an issue of do you want your town run professionally or politically. Our town is run by politics at the moment.
The Concerned Citizens have constantly hammered the council for being wasteful and unethical but then they want these very same people to over see our Town. The council/manager form of government would hire a professional manager who then would over see the work of the town. The final appeal would always be the council but the day to day would be the job of the professional manager who would be answerable to council.
I have researched with the League of municipalities and ICMA and there are no hidden costs to the council/manager form of government that I can identify and in fact should be more cost effective if the council does its homework and a qualified manager is hired.
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Baseball Buddy
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 10:45 am |
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| Very well said Jane. I have always said that if you say you don't understand the issue you need to educate yourself before making a decision. Anyone who says they have not heard of this or don't understand why people want the change choose not to educate themselves. Government will not come to your house and serve it to you on a silver platter. You have to get involved and learn how it works. Thanks Jane for all you have done to help people who want to learn more about the differences between the two forms of government.
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 11:20 am |
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GRITS wrote: StewartM wrote: How long you live here doesn't matter after you pay your first property tax.....
But it doesn't make you an expert on how the town should be run either.
Yet Summerfield would hire an outsider (non-local) to manage how the town is run under a Manager/Council system as the expert professional manager?
Politics would not be removed under a Manager/Council system, it would merely change. And any manager worth a hill of beans, would clearly understand that his or her job was always subject to the ever changing whims of an ever changing majority of council members. Anyone want to talk about lack of job security for a town manager?
Simply recall all of the various county managers in Guilford County who came and went under the ever changing political guard as power shifted back and forth between two groups. No county manager has ever slowed Skip Alston down, no Greensboro City Manager has ever silenced Diane Bellamy-Small, and no Summerfield town manager is going to slow down nor silence the likes of Becky Strickland.
Those looking for a permanent solution to a temporary problem would be wise to look for solutions other than what is perceived to be the quick fix. It's time to get real and not kid one's self.
The illusion which many have is that politics and dissent by a vocal minority will simply go away under a new system, which is not reality based.
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Hairbrush
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 12:48 pm |
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I want to return a moment to what I am looking for in a town council member and a candidate. I think Mr. Lovett has the right approach. In my original post way back when I stated that I did think it was important to ask the question that Grits was asking of candidates about how long you have lived in Summerfield and how involved you are in the town of Summerfield. Maybe I should have changed the wording to how active are you in Summerfield. I see Mr. Lovett really making an effort to understand the dynamics of the town he lives in and to really get to the know the people he lives with. He may not have lived here during all the incidents that make up our history but he is willing to listen to it and to understand it. I really think he has put a lot of thought into what he wants to accomplish on the council. He also has a great back ground in the environment which it seems the town of Summerfield needs. I also like that Mr. Lovett comes out and tells us what he stands for not what he stands against. Kudos to Mr. Lovett.
I think that one of the things you have to remember when you run for political office is that not everyone is going to agree with you. You are hoping that you can bring certain groups together and use their strengths so that some goal will be met. But you know in reality that might not happen. You are hoping that some of things that you promised your supporters will happen. You know that on some things you are going to compromise, some things you are going to have to give up and some things you are going to hold strong. And in the end the People, your bosses, will be pleased.
The problem I see with a council member like Becky Strickland is there is no compromise. It seems to be her way or no way. She gets nasty. She is nasty to the staff, she is nasty to her fellow council members and she is nasty to her citizens. I have never seen her at a town function so to me she seems very unapproachable. So her motions start to die on the floor, she is the lone hold out vote. Sometimes she has a good point and a good idea, but I think she has already set the council so on edge that her message gets lost. I know I want to tune her out. What she says always seem to have an edge to it. So what do the people that voted for her get. Nothing, unless they just want to say she always stood her ground. What good is that, when a little compromise or a little teamwork might have gone a long way.
I don't want a council member like that. Doesn't mean I won't vote for someone that is strong will and stands against the majority but if they can't work with people and know when to compromise then what is the use. If they aren't willing to get to know the community and be one of us then what is the use. I not going to get any of my changes anyway.
Wow, sorry about the rant. I better get off my soapbox and earn a living since I guess I won't be getting rich off the stock market.
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GRITS
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 01:54 pm |
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Doug Canavello wrote: What do we want our government to do for us?
Policy development – it is time for Summerfield to look at models of government. I understand that is what the current council-manager referendum is starting to look at. But I’m concerned we haven’t got a governance model in place to make that system work. Four Way Test – and I would bring it to each and every discussion and action;
Is it the truth?
Is it FAIR to all concerned?
Will it build GOODWILL and BETTER FREINDSHIPS?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned?
If we can do that with our town government, we can say we accomplished something.
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Mr. Canavello, to help me understand your opinion on the council/manager form of government, and educate me to make a wise vote, I ask that you consider using your FOUR WAY TEST to support your vision on this type of government and why Summerfield should remain under a political driven government.
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 02:02 pm |
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GRITS wrote: why Summerfield should remain under a political driven government.
If you can think of one single government or one single form of government which is not politically driven, please share that with us. We would all love to hear of your ideal government not politically driven, but we know it simply doesn't exist.
Governments don't operate in Alice in Wonderland environments, they function in the real world of real people with differing political needs.
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lovettrp
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 03:49 pm |
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Jim Flynt wrote: GRITS wrote: why Summerfield should remain under a political driven government.
If you can think of one single government or one single form of government which is not politically driven, please share that with us. We would all love to hear of your ideal government not politically driven, but we know it simply doesn't exist.
Would anarchy be a non-politically driven form of government?
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 04:02 pm |
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lovettrp wrote: Would anarchy be a non-politically driven form of government?
Anarchy is a word that comes from the Greek, and signifies, strictly speaking, "without government" or the absence of government.
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lovettrp
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 04:20 pm |
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| I was being sarcastic... I know! But thanks anyway for the definition.
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DOGGETTJA
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Posted: Aug 16th, 2007 06:40 pm |
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| Just because this isn't Wonderland do we quit trying?
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