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FatPappy
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 12:08 am |
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Pappy wanted to find out the accuracy of a recent accusation, so I consulted someone beyond reproach who I thought might offer the appropriate insight: the Treasurer of the United Taxpayers of Fantasy Island.
Question: Is the proposed Summerfield Park amphitheatre really going to cost 2.2 million dollars?
Answer: No, 2.2 million dollars is actually how much money you'd have if you had a nickel for every time that baseless accusation was made.
(That makes sense. After all, he does have an official sounding title.)
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 01:56 am |
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FatPappy wrote: Question: Is the proposed Summerfield Park amphitheatre really going to cost 2.2 million dollars?
Answer: NO.
I am reminded of one of Ronald Reagan's favorite quotes from another American President:
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams (1735 - 1826), 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770
It seems to me, that the only answer for ignorance is education. And education begins with an understanding of, appreciation for, determination of and application of the "FACTS."
It is said that the proof is in the pudding, and it is time for the visionaries to establish that "proof."
For those who cannot or will not open their eyes to see, let them stay standing in a river knee deep while dying of thirst.
For those who would wallow in ignorance there is no hope other than education or egg on their face in the face of their ignorance.
Therefore, isn't it way past time for the proactive supporters to assert the facts rather than to allow the naysayers the opportunity to establish a set of facts which are anything but factual. In other words, a proof of what other entities are building and have recently built amphitheaters for, would put to rest once and for all the ignorance behind those who spout off these $4 million dollar cost figures without having any idea at all of what they are talking about.
It is hard if not impossible to argue with "the FACTS" of what other entities have actually spent to build similar facilities.
Now, having said all of that, it further seems to me, that the time is now right, to put together a leadership study group to research what other cities, counties, regional consortiums, educational institutions and other entities might be spending to build or have spent to recently build amphitheaters. And then sharing those facts, once established, with the public at large.
That alone would serve not only to dampen but to deaden the outrageous claims made in ignorance by those willing to wallow in their ignorance and incapable of elucidation.
With just the most basic of cursory Internet searches, interestingly enough, I found several amphitheaters under construction around the country as well as photos and background information (including costs). I am going to include weblinks to just two of these amphitheaters, one which was built in a Seattle park with much of the construction donated by contractors and another seating 500 people built for George Fox University for $130,000.00.
I am convinced that there are dozens or more perfect examples which could be derived to establish factual costs as well as assist in avoiding mistakes that other entities might have made during the planning and implementation of their developments.
I will try to find some time to do more research and would love to be part of a study group if there is interest on the part of others.
Here are the links to two amphitheater projects and make sure to view the construction photos which provide great detail of the before and after appearances.
http://www.cityofseattle.net/magnusongarden/Amphitheater/Amphi.htm
http://www.georgefox.edu/construction/
Now isn't it time that "we" took the lead in shaping the Summerfield amphitheater debate instead of allowing the ignorant and their ignorance to prevail?
I am convinced that we will win the war not by meeting the enemy on the battlefield with swords drawn or tirades exchanged, but rather by confronting the opposition and simply compromising their lies with FACTS.
As President Reagan liked to say: Facts are stubborn things!
Last edited on Dec 5th, 2006 03:04 am by Jim Flynt
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Cracker Jax
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 02:53 am |
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Jim Flynt wrote: With just the most basic of cursory Internet searches, interestingly enough, I found several amphitheaters under construction around the country as well as photos and background information (including costs). I am going to include weblinks to just two of these amphitheaters, one which was built in a Seattle park with much of the construction donated by contractors and another seating 500 people built for George Fox University for $130,000.00.
Those are great pics Jim! That first one is beautiful and that 130,000 one is pretty nice too.... I'd settle for that one if I can't have the one that costs 4 mil. 
I think they've told themselves their version of "the facts" so much now that they've convinced themselves that we are building a coliseum or something.
Definitely wading in a river and dying of thirst.
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DOGGETTJA
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 10:30 am |
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Ok Jim I accept the chanllenge and here is my contribution.
Per the Summerfield Parks Master Plan Draft Report March 22, 2002 under Park Side Pase 2 Estimating assumptions section D Ampitheater The following costs are listed.
Grading/shaping $35,000
Walls,stone 890LF 16" high @ $60LF $53,400
Walks, 300LF 5' wide+1500 sq @ $6/sf $9,000
Stage 900SF @$6 sq $5,400
Electircal $ 15,000
Toatal estimated in 2002 $117,400
That is the official estimate for the ampitheater for the Summerfield park. I realize there will have to be some adjusting for inflation but still A long way from 2-4 million.
That is the truth as I know it.
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Baseball Buddy
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 11:59 am |
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| So what rate of inflation are the CC's using? $130,000.00 in 2002 verses 2 to 4 million in 2006-7 ? Can they actually plea ignorance? Fabrication of fact, yes! Manipulation of others ignorance? Yes! Such well educated people that refuse to look at the real facts. Where do they get their estimated cost of 2.2 to 4 million dollars as Ms Dunham spoke of? My father, a construction engineer and has managed several multi- million dollar projects , laughs at this and says "I could retire from just 1 project if this is so." This has to stop! Let's set the record straight each time this is mentioned.
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 12:14 pm |
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Baseball Buddy wrote: Let's set the record straight each time this is mentioned.
It appears to me that there is some degree of credence that we attach by even continuing to bandy about their $4 million dollar cost figure. Our doing so only serves to continue the broadcast of an incorrect misleading number in front of the public eye. I'm sure the other side delights every time someone here throws that number out, which only serves as negative reinforcement in the public mind.
I agree with you that the record needs to be made straight, and I suggest the best way to do that, is by doing the necessary research and then putting together a "truth package" based on that research which would then be disseminated to the general public in Summerfield. That package should/could include costs from other amphitheater construction projects around the country within the past 3 years. Perhaps some photos and supporting data could be attached as well. It would not hurt and would serve the public interest well, if a short history of amphitheaters and their broader public use was also discussed and included.
From my cursory research last night, it also seems to me that the experiences of these other entitites and communities would be a vital source of information regarding grants, funding, operations costs, and income from various activities which these communities have experienced perhaps in ways that have not been anticipated and envisioned in Summerfield.
It is said that in politics, perceptions become reality (at least to voters), so it is imperative that henceforth perceptions be shaped by the reality of actual cost data from the research proposed rather than the continuing ignorance from the munchkins of Never Never Land and Fantasy Island spouting venom and lies.
Here is the bottom line. It is time to shift the debate from us trying to disprove their illusory fantasy numbers and let the debate shift to forcing them to disprove the cost figures we derive from a review of other actual real communitites and entities. It is time for us to stop focusing on the saplings and start overseeing the forest.
In fact, we would do well to stop even mentioning their $4 million dollar number as it only adds to their enjoyment in seeing the squirming discomfort of the proactive group and continues to inadvertantly perpetuate their myths and flights of fantasy.
Last edited on Dec 5th, 2006 12:36 pm by Jim Flynt
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Cracker Jax
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 01:31 pm |
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You make a good point Jim... much like one we've pointed out before about giving the 2 "troublesome" council members all of the press and attention which only serves to brand their names in the minds of the public who don't bother to keep up with the political happenings. 
So I guess what you are saying is, that we could just publish that our amphitheater is gonna cost a hundred grand and that a lot of that will be covered by grants. The ball will then be in their court to "disprove" what we say. Right?
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Jim Flynt
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Posted: Dec 5th, 2006 02:47 pm |
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Cracker Jax wrote:
So I guess what you are saying is, that we could just publish that our amphitheater is gonna cost a hundred grand and that a lot of that will be covered by grants. The ball will then be in their court to "disprove" what we say. Right?
Crackah, again from just the most cursory of reviews of cost data from other cities and entities, it would certainly appear that an amphitheaterr could easily be constructed for a cost of somewhere between $100,000.00 (One Hundred Thousand Dollars) and $200,000.00 (Two Hundred Thousand Dollars).
Again, from my limited research, it would certainly appear that other cities and entities have been and were successful in funding all or great parts of their amphitheater costs through grants, gifts, corporate sponsorships and other creative financial means. More indepth research is likely to uncover even more creative ideas which would flow to the benefit of the proposed Summerfield project.
The proof is in the pudding and the proof from actual real experiences from other communities around the country would certainly be hard to argue with and ignore.
There is an old story about the Baptist Church which inherited a modest sum of money upon the death of one of it's members, a widow. The Baptist Church called a meeting of their membership to discuss what to do with this unexpected 'gift' of money.
One member stood up and made a motion that the Baptist Church buy some chandeliers for the church house. Wherein another jumped up in response, and immediately said, "before we go buying those chandeliers, I think we need to consider buying some lights for the church house."
I think that analogy might be especially appropriate here.
People are generally fearful and xenophobic about words and things with which they are not familiar and accustomed to having experienced.
There are probably a large number of Northwest citizens who wouldn't know the difference between an amphitheater and an amplifier, and so it becomes imperative that a logical process be utilized to educate them to the benefits of such an amphitheater. As a "buzzword" an "amphitheater" purported to cost $4 Million Dollars would stick in the minds of those less aware and would reinforce the negative message that the CC's are trying to send. It makes for great political sloganeering and paints an icon that folks aren't likely going to forget. We simply can't ignore the force of that subliminal message.
Perhaps by showing them the many uses to which such a facility could accommodate, they might well buy into 'ownership' and support for such a project. Again, a cursory review of the experiences of other cities and entities show some creative uses, which I doubt have been shared with the Summerfield public. Those are and would be great selling points and marketing tools in shaping the debate for support for such a facility. I will try to do some more research and share some examples of uses which may not have been considered and then post those in the days ahead.
Last edited on Dec 5th, 2006 02:54 pm by Jim Flynt
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Hairbrush
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Posted: Dec 6th, 2006 12:07 pm |
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| Jim, I am ready to bring some positive information to the town. I think we should distant ourselves from the concerned citizens by showing them what the town can do. I am ready to help with research on amphitheatres. I am leaving for the rest of the week but would love to do some research and then maybe we can put it together in a nice attractive way to presented to the people of Summerfield.
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bama80
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Posted: Dec 6th, 2006 01:24 pm |
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| someone should wear one of those signs that hang on your body (you know the ones that say the end is near) to the TC meeting but have pics of ampitheaters around the US and in big type how much they cost.
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Hairbrush
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Posted: Dec 6th, 2006 01:36 pm |
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| Bama I love that idea. We could have so much fun with that.
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macca
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Posted: Dec 6th, 2006 01:46 pm |
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| Scuba Jane could wear the "sandwich boards" right over her scuba outfit!! What a great way to bring attention to this great project!!! ♥♥♥
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DOGGETTJA
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Posted: Dec 6th, 2006 09:55 pm |
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| You get the sign. I have the scuba gear. I bet that would get peoples attention!!1
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Cracker Jax
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Posted: Jan 10th, 2007 01:39 pm |
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At last night's council meeting Mark Brown stated that he had been to an "obesity prevention" seminar, and along with the mayors of adjoining towns, he would like support this program. They had requested that a representative from the town attend monthly meetings to support the program. Mark stated that Sue Beeson had graciously volunteered to do it and asked for the council's approval.
Here's where it gets good. Councilman Crawford couldn't seem to get over the fact that there was an obesity prevention program and said that if you eat cheeseburgers then your pants would go up a size. Simple as that.
When Strickland and other council members tried to explain to him that the program was targeting kids and trying to teach kids how to lead healthier lives, Crawford stated that "Parents aren't doing their jobs".
(as far as I know, Crawford is not a parent so what does he know about parenting?)
Perhaps if Mark had put it in the form of a resolution it would have been more appealing to Crawford.
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macca
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Posted: Jan 10th, 2007 01:52 pm |
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Crackah, I've heard of this program... Glad to hear there is local participation. I hope our other two towns will do it as well...
So, if it doesn't concern DC it's not important? What about parents who aren't responsibly doing their jobs or who just don't know better? In the long run, doesn't that affect all of us in some way? Isn't education (ie - prevention) better than treatment???
Hasn't this attitude about "parents doing their jobs" come up in other discussions as well?
I sure am glad he lives in Summerfield!!
BTW: When he was offering to take folks out to dinner for "discussions," I'm assuming he was only going to purchase the healthiest of food for them??!??
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A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright
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