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S. Smith Moderator
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The incident on the Virginia Tech campus where all the people were killed today is incredible. The last count of those dead that I heard was 32. What could have driven someone to this type of action? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Edited by Poster. Last edited on Aug 5th, 2007 11:20 am by Jim Flynt |
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TCat Member 
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I'm sure the larger cause is a mental or emotional problem and not interaction with movies or games. The same "obsession" could be triggered by the real violence portrayed in the news or, even in a particularly graphic book. While I'm no video game fan myself, I don't think they are to blame for what all they get blamed for. Violence has been around a lot longer than these games and movies. Parental neglect and family problems are much more prevalent these days and a more likely cause. And by neglect, I mean parent being too lazy to take an active interest in what is going on in their kids lives and what they are experiencing. |
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TCat Member
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By the way, here is my new favorite quote from Bush reported in response to the incident: A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia. "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said. Insensitive and dumb. Geez! |
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StewartM Member 
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A lot of parents lost their babies yesterday, my thoughts and prayers are with them....let us grieve our dead today and point fingers next week...... |
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mstone Member
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TCat wrote: By the way, here is my new favorite quote from Bush reported in response to the incident: TCat, Interesting couple of comments from you there. First, you state, "I'm sure the larger cause is a mental or emotional problem and not interaction with movies or games. The same "obsession" could be triggered by the real violence portrayed in the news or, even in a particularly graphic book." "While I'm no video game fan myself, I don't think they are to blame for what all they get blamed for. Violence has been around a lot longer than these games and movies." Then in your next post you selectively quote a single line from a long press conference about this tragedy. Insensitive? How? This was a response to comments and questions being asked about this issue. Perhaps the timing was bad, but would you have preferred that the spokeperson have said "no comment" or "now is not the time to answer your questions" when asked by reporters? Dumb? How so? Are you saying that people do not have a right to bear arms? Are you saying that all laws need not be followed? I'm a little confused. Who knows what set this guy off? I don't. I don't know if he ever played a video game, saw violent images in a movie, or ever saw a news program that "portrayed violence". I don't know what his family life was like. All I know is that he killed innocent people for no good reason. I think that when all the facts are disclosed that there will be a long laundry list of warning signs that were missed or ignored. There will be missed opportunities that could have prevented this. There will be mistakes that were made before, during, and after the incident. All that said, let's focus on the victims, the families, and the real issue... How can we prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again. By the way, here is my new favorite quote from Bush reported in response to the incident: "A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia." We should all do the same. |
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Aberystwyth Member 
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Thanks to all who have commented so far. I very much agree with the sentiment that now is the time for prayers and compassion, which I believe is always true. And I am appalled, but not surprised, by all the second-guessing and blaming that is underway in the national media. That said, I do have some thoughts and please forgive me for having so many words … Guns. While I sympathize with the right to bear arms, I don’t believe it is practical for everyone to carry a concealed weapon. One “security expert” on television said if the students and faculty had been carrying guns, then the tragedy would have been averted as they could have killed him first. Gosh, and then what, the SWAT team arrives and shoots everyone with a gun. I don’t own a gun, and hopefully never will. But I believe that people are the problem, not guns per se. Easy access to guns is a contributing factor, and this killer obtained his guns legally, but that is just one factor. Safety and security. Yes I think schools should be safe places, but I don’t think we should over-react and make every campus an armed camp. The fact is that a student is much more likely to be shot and killed at home by a family member than by some stranger on a school campus. The Two-Hour Window. Some think the whole campus should have been locked down, that the University made serious errors in judgment. I disagree. You can only make a judgment based on what you know and understand. There was no reason to think that the first incident wasn’t over, that someone else might occur. It makes a much sense to me to lock down the Virginia Tech campus after the first incident as it is to lock down all campuses. Because nobody knew where “he” went. He could have driven here to Greensboro. Someone might be about to open fire again, right there on the Virginia Tech campus, or here. Maybe. Might be. There is simply no reason to believe it is going to happen. It could happen, anywhere, at any time. And you just can’t prevent this from happening by locking down everything. So I applaud the Virginia Tech administration for how they have handled all this. They did the right thing, based on what they knew at the time. Causes I. This is a tough one. From what they are now saying, the killer had some problems, including stalking women, taking candid photos of women, writing about violence, being a loner, etc. All of which “may” be of concern, although quite frankly being a loner doesn’t in itself bother me. The focus on violence, the mental illness, etc., that does bother me. And so yes there were signs, but none of the signs were conclusive. That’s how it is with human nature. There is no absolute cause and effect relationship between any of these signs and signals and actual violent behavior. Maybe statistically there is some correlation, but that does NOT mean that just because someone exhibits these signs that he is therefore dangerous. Because many people exhibit these signs, and do NOT go on to be mass murderers. So we cannot predict human behavior. Which makes it very hard to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Causes II. Another so-called “expert” said that ONE of the reasons for increasing frequency of this sort of thing, school shootings, etc., is that discipline in schools and respect for authority in schools, has eroded over the years, and CORRELATES with increased violence on the part of students. I happen to agree. When I was in school there was widespread respect for authority and school administrators were fair but firm when it came to discipline. When my kids were in school, it was a bit looser, but still there was good discipline in schools. But that has changed. More recently, when I was teaching at NWHS the thing that impressed me the most was the lack of discipline, the lack of concern for discipline on the part of the school administrators. It was the reason I left. Not for money, but because the school administration would not support teachers on matters of discipline. There were six students in my classes who I considered seriously disturbing, who had absolutely no respect or consideration for teachers or other students, who were continuously disruptive and disrespectful. I’m sure there were many such students in other classes, and even though the vast majority of students were decent kids who did their best, the fact that the school tolerated such widespread lack of discipline is simply appalling to me. School administrators were more concerned with being popular with students and parents than creating a healthy learning environment for everyone. SO, I believe that this is a contributing factor to subsequent violence in schools. Causes III. Bullying. Yes, I know most of you will probably disagree with me on this, if not on everything else I say, but I believe it is unhealthy for us to tolerate bulling. Kids who are bullied do not necessarily grow up to be killers, but they are much more likely than kids who have not been bullied. Being the recipient of bullying leads to anger and other strong and largely suppressed emotions. That coupled with the widespread “glorification” of violence on television, etc., leads to potential violence. Notice that I said potential. I was bullied when I was in school. But I got over it. Left me feeling considerable sympathy for those who have been bullied. But being bullied does NOT excuse subsequent violence. But in our society bullying is “normal” … and we tend to avoid the loners instead of reaching out to them. Okay. Probably said too much as it is. But I am bothered by this massacre. As I was by Columbine and the Amish schoolhouse shootings, and similar senselessness. But I am bothered also by the unintelligent second-guessing and blaming that is going on. Nobody ever seems to focus on the real problem, the underlying psychology of the shooter and how it came to be. |
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Cracker Jax Member 
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Wow Aberystywth. That's a lot to digest. I also own no guns, and hope I never need to, and personally, I'd be fine if we weren't allowed to have them. BUT I understand why the NRA and others are fighting so hard to keep this freedom. I think the VT episode is an example of how our civil liberties can become "inconvenient freedoms". MSNBC is now reporting that the shooter sent a package to NBC that had a video and some disturbing photos of himself. There was other stuff too, that they are supposedly going to go over in a moment. They have disclosed that he was declared INSANE and then released to live a normal life. I just tuned in, so I don't know who declared him insane. One of the students they just interviewed stated that there should be a connection between the "gun sellers" and the folks who declare people insane. Good point I thought.
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Aberystwyth Member
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Indeed, Cracker Jax, I also find the “community” spirit there to be heart-warming. And hopefully as this community heals they will be even stronger. I am continually amazed at how friendships forged during our early years can endure and grow over the intervening years.. My kids are even more connected with their friends from h.s. and college than I am, by staying in touch via email and websites like facebook. While I have never been a Virginia Tech fan, I am impressed by the sentiment expressed by many of the colleges and universities around the country in the last two days, namely, that today we are all Hokies. |
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macca Member 
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I heard that there is a call for everyone to wear burgundy and orange on Friday to show support for Virginia Tech. BTW: I agree with you, too, A. I think we can still have our "right to bear arms" without making guns whose main purpose would be to kill another person so readily available to anyone who wants to buy one. |
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GRITS Member
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macca wrote: I heard that there is a call for everyone to wear burgundy and orange on Friday to show support for Virginia Tech. Yes, I have been informed to show support Friday by wearing the VT colors in support of one of my nurses that lost a cousin in the massacre. Show your support for everyone, for it is a tragic circumstance and now everyone must heal. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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You know what? I can't get the parents and the sister of that killer off of my mind. What they must be going through..... I heard yesterday that they've left their home because of the media circus outside. I suppose only time will tell whether or not they had any inkling that something like this could happen, but I would assume that they were instrumental in his being in the mental instution (where he was declared insane) in the first place. If that's the case, how terribly, terribly sad for them (and the VT community) that they did not get the help that they needed. Be sure to add them to your prayer list. |
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DOGGETTJA Member 
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Cracker I agree. The family must be devastated. They interviewed a Korean neighbor of the family years ago who said Cho and his sister studied all the time and they were held up as examples of what you had to do to get ahead. She had seen Cho's father not to long ago and he was very happy because his children were going to be so successful. I don't know whether the family had him comitted but the police did. He was harrassing girls and then his friend called the police ans said he was suicidal. They had him comitted. I sort of understood it was while he was there at Va Tech. |
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GRITS Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: He was harrassing girls and then his friend called the police ans said he was suicidal. They had him comitted. I sort of understood it was while he was there at Va Tech. Usually if this type of behavior is exhibited while on campus, and it is reported , most of the time the student is expelled because the university considers this type of student to be dangerous not only to himself but others. |
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mstone Member
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macca wrote: I think we can still have our "right to bear arms" without making guns whose main purpose would be to kill another person so readily available to anyone who wants to buy one. macca, What's the purpose of a firearm? Your statement (guns whose main purpose would be to kill another person) is odd to me. Of course that's what guns kept for personal protection are designed to do. They aren't built or designed to scare someone, or wound someone. They are the last line of defense. I've been trained that if you pull your weapon, you must have reconciled in your mind that it's the only alternative. It's you and/or your family's life versus theirs. Even for the most hardened human, that decision should be very, very difficult to make. How are guns "readily available to anyone who wants to buy one"? If you're talking about legal gun ownership, it's ain't as easy as you make it seem. It takes days to get a permit. You have to go to the police department in person and pay for the background check by the sheriff's department. If you want a concealed carry permit, there's a HUGE cost, extensive training, and additional background work. I say - GREAT. I have no problems with any of this, but let's not make it sound like you walk into Walmart and walk our with a pistol. I agree with you Cracker, What process failed that allowed someone declared "insane" to be allowed to purchase anything more dangerous than a butter knife?!? I had not heard he'd been officially declared insane, but if that's the case somebody needs to be held accountable for letting him out on the streets - and to be able to possess a firearm. It's disappointing that folks are giving any attention to the gun issue. This particular forum isn't the place to discuss that. In my mind, this forum is really about the victims - and about prevention. Finally, the President's comments at VT were powerful. Healing starts with prayer. President Bush and others understand this and communicated it very well. I pray that every victim's family finds comfort in HIS presence. |
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TCat Member
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I think this forum is the place to discuss what is on our minds that this incident has brought up and if people feel that easy access to guns is directly related, then it is relevant. And I may have been mistaken in what I read but it appears that while he didn't get the guns a day before, he was able to get them: "Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness." Apparently the system that you have described as being in place is not good enough as, obviously, he was able to get the guns. And as so many other criminals are able to everyday. And I think the NRA has done a great job lobbying to keep access to guns fairly easy and types of guns that are not needed by the general public. I don't like guns. I don't want any around me. And it has been shown that having them around increases the chance that someone in your house will get shot. You have stated that guns are kept for personal protection as a last line of defense. But most people are untrained in how to not panic in a stressful situation. If they have gun in the house they are not going to go through all of the other options first. They are going to grab the gun. And I don't think many people are "really" ready to kill someone or have thought it all the way through. The quote was also distributed by the media not just noticed by me. I think it was insensitive and unthinking and, even if pulled out of a whole long press conference as a single statement, it didn't surprise me because that is pretty much the opinion I have of this president. I know the press asked the question but he didn't let the opportunity slip by to give the message the lobby pays him to give. I'm sure the families are comforted with his words. Last edited on Apr 20th, 2007 03:55 am by TCat |
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mstone Member
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TCat, No offense intended in my post. If this is the place to discuss the Second Amendment - so be it. As I noted in an earlier post, there's a problem when someone like Cho can get a gun. I'm not opposed to gun laws that restricts access for legitimate reasons. I still cannot understand why he was able to purchase weapons after the judge's ruling. I can only assume it's because he wasn't charged with a crime, and the judge didn't put any sort of restrictions on his actions or behaviors. His criminal background check evidently came back clean. Unfortunately, this idiot was going to do what he did anyway. I agree that the system wasn't good enough to keep guns from him. And yes, other criminals get guns as well. The issue is how do you protect a law abiding citizen's right to own firearms while stopping criminals from doing the same. Even the staunchest pro-gun individual would sign up for the program that can accomplish both. And yes, the NRA does a great job making sure that hundreds of thousands of law abiding citizens are able to legally own firearms for their self protection and for the protection of their families. I certainly understand that you don't like guns. There are lots of folks that don't. I personally don't like pit bulls, but some folks have them for protection. Yes, guns in a house increase the chances that someone may get shot - perhaps an intruder. Accidents happen, but by and large guns in a home are not ticking time bombs. You won't be suprised to hear that more innocent people are killed by drunk drivers than by guns. There are laws that are supposed to protect us from drunk drivers, yet idiots still drink and drive with disasterous results. Are we going to outlaw cars or alcohol? More children die in bicycle accidents and in drownings than gun related incidents. Should we outlaw bikes and fill all the swimming pools and lakes? You are correct that EVERY gun owner should be REQUIRED to take a mandatory safety course before they own their first firearm. You'll never take the stress out of a home invasion or attempted robbery, but you can take the panic out. It's no different from a home fire drill. You plan and you practice - often. You hope and pray that the house doesn't catch on fire, but if it does - through all the stress - you go through with the plan. Same with gun safety. You're right, most people are not ready to kill another human being. I'm not. But presented with the choice between harm to my family or an intruder, I believe I can and will protect my family. I'm certain that you would do the same. It simply appears that we've chosen different methods on how to address such a situation. I can appreciate your feelings on this issue. It seems that few people are on the fence on this subject. You either are or are not - there's very little "maybe" out there. Of all the responses I've read, I think Aberystwyth probably has the most insightful thought of this. Bullying (especially for someone "different") can have long-lasting and tragic results. We talk about it at every PTA gathering, at school functions, and even the BOE has talked about it. DOING something about it is what's needed. I just have to wonder how this situation would have been different if Cho had been treated with some inclusion and compassion by his peers. How sad. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I think the VA Tech massacre was the "Perfect Storm." Everything that is imperfect in our society came together on that day. Cho who it seems was tentively diagnosed as autistic as a child with a speech impediment was then tormented in school. His mental illness again diagnosed in college but there are no facilities or support for adults with mental illness. He then goes out and legally buys guns. He then shoots people. The fact I think is that our society can not or does not have an support for these types of people. The focus their whole being on this imagined issue and there is no way we "normal" people can be a 100% safe. Actually what I think these incidents do is really just take away more of our freedoms. We talk about it, look for scape goats and pass laws that law abiding people abide by. But the crazies are still out there. |
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mstone Member
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I couldn't agree more! There were probably a hundred different things that culminated in this violent act of rage. Who knows, if someone could have stepped in at some point and reached this guy on a personal level maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Who knows how many times this type of thing is stopped before it comes to gether. |
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gotobeme Member 
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I would say as not much has been said about this subject; "bullying and tauntings". Why do we not face the truth in all of this. Most people who are disturbed as this individual was walk this earth everyday and do not commit such acts. They may hurt themselves but not others as much. This kind of action is mostly seen from people who are hurting so bad in the inside at the pleasure of others they strike out. Just my opinion. gotobeme |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Another scary aspect of this case to me is that there was nothing special about Va. Tech -- in other words, this could have happened anywhere. Regarding bullying, let's face it: kids can sometimes be downright cruel. I remember being teased as a kid for various reasons and it hurt, although luckily I was never the brunt of a lot of this kind of behavior. I was impressed when NWMS had a program a couple of years ago and brought in a speaker who was an expert on bullying. I think it would be great if all school systems everywhere offered training to everybody from the teachers (from kindergarten through high school) to the cafeteria workers to the bus drivers on how to deal with this sort of situation when it arises and make it clear that bullying is not allowed. |
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ff12 Member 
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Just about all of the mass shootings have occured in weapon free zones. This was brought out by Ted Neugent. |
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macca Member
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ff12 wrote:Just about all of the mass shootings have occured in weapon free zones. This was brought out by Ted Neugent. Do they think that is because the shooter believes they'll be able to take out a lot of people quickly b/c no one else will be armed? |
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Baseball Buddy Member 
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Always remember, Guns don't kill, People do. People who own guns know how to store and handle guns safely. Weather or not they practice safety is the down fall. This massacre was a tragedy. It should have no bearing on the right to bear arms. Will It? Yes! Does it affect all good law abiding citizens? Yes! Criminals will get guns no matter what. He would have acquired a gun to do this eventually through other means. People need to realize that there are good and bad people. We tend to over analyze and think we can change the bad people to good. This person needed GOD in his life to change him not doctors. This sort of thing whether it be mental illness or just plain meanness can only be helped through GOD. |
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macca Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote:Always remember, Guns don't kill, People do. People who own guns know how to store and handle guns safely. Weather or not they practice safety is the down fall. This massacre was a tragedy. It should have no bearing on the right to bear arms. Will It? Yes! No it won't. Nothing ever does. JFK. RFK. MLK. Columbine. All of the other school killings. All of the other shootings committed by people who shouldn't have been able to get guns.... The NRA rallies the troops, throws money around and convinces law-abiding citizens that their rights are going to be trampled and so nothing ever changes. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I agree Macca. For one thing it is much harder to beat someone to dealth with a rock and certainly 32 people would not have died but nothing changes. I could and would never be able to kill some one with a gun. I do not feel I have the right to kill anyone for any reason. There is a much higher judge who will sort this all out in the end and in my humble opinion there are much worse things than being dead. Living with the knowledge I had killed another human being is one of those worse things. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Edited by Poster. Last edited on Aug 5th, 2007 11:20 am by Jim Flynt |
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ff12 Member
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senseless destruction of human life, hmmmmm must be talking about dwi victims or drug related homicides and suicides, or airplane crashes or the real senseless destruction : ABORTION. |
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Super Moderator Super Moderator
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ff12 wrote: senseless destruction of human life, hmmmmm must be talking about dwi victims or drug related homicides and suicides, or airplane crashes or the real senseless destruction : ABORTION. Please stay on the topic of Virginia Tech Killings |
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mstone Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: Isn't it rather amazing that none of these mass killings ever occur in countries (such as Britain and much of Northern Europe) where ownership of guns are highly restricted if not forbidden? You're kidding - right??? Australia, Germany, and Great Britain have all but ended private gun ownership. The results? In Germany, a 50% increase in gun deaths. Home invasions are up in Australia by more the 40%. Robberies on the streets of England and gang violence with the use of guns have increased a staggering 70% since guns were taken from the law abiding citizens. No mass killings in Europe??? Scotland, March 1996: Gunman shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself. Yemen, March 1997: A man with a rifle attacked hundreds of pupils at two schools in Sanaa, Yemen, killing six children and two others. Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries. Germany, February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich. The man also shot dead his boss and a foreman at the company he worked for before turning the gun on himself. Another teacher was shot in the face, but survived. Germany, April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, Eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself. No, you don't hear about "good law abiding citizen, who armed with the freely available legal weapon" stopping these people. There's a very good explanation - and ff12 pointed it out earlier. These massacres happen in "gun free zones". If I take my legal weapon onto a school campus, I am no longer a law-abiding citizen. This short-sighted law enacted on behalf of lobbyist for the Brady Campaign and HCI (Handgun Control Inc.) turns law-abiding citizens into criminals if they walk or drive into one of these "zones" with a weapon. The news media rarely reports instances where a person used their legally owned firearm for their own protection. However, did you see the CNN piece this weekend about the 82 year old, former Miss America that stopped a home intruder in Kentucky by shooting out his tires and holding him until police arrived? Without that gun, you have to wonder what chance an 82 year old lady would have against this thug. I can list dozens of examples where law-abiding citizens have used their legal firearms to protect themselves from thugs and criminals if you'd like. Jim, I can only hope you're right. Perhaps this tragedy will be the public's motivating force which finally results in some meaningful changes in gun laws. Maybe law-abiding citizens that are fully trained to use a firearm will be allowed to protect themselves and others and stop such tragedies. |
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FatPappy Member 
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mstone wrote:You're kidding - right??? Australia, Germany, and Great Britain have all but ended private gun ownership. The results? In Germany, a 50% increase in gun deaths. Home invasions are up in Australia by more the 40%. Robberies on the streets of England and gang violence with the use of guns have increased a staggering 70% since guns were taken from the law abiding citizens. Pappy ain't much on statistics, but here are some I found without makin' a scientifical search out of it. The numbers are a little old, so maybe somebody has some newer ones that will tell a different story. I'll look some more, but I gotta get outside fer a bit right now. Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries: In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns were used to cause the death of: 373 people in Germany 151 people in Canada 57 people in Australia 19 people in Japan 54 people in England and Wales, and 11,789 people in the United States (*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings). |
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macca Member
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Wow! Thanks for the impressive statistics, Pappy! Sad, but impressive..... |
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FatPappy Member
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Yep, sad. Here's some more recent numbers I found (compiled in 2006) from the National Safety Council web site. Puts it in some perspeective. Odds of dying from: Heart Disease: 1 in 5 Motor vehicle accident: 1 in 84 Firearm assault: 1 in 314 Bicycling accident: 1 in 4,919 Lightning: 1 in 79,746 Anyway, not to get too far from the topic, I just hope more effective gun control can come from this tragedy. |
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bama80 Member 
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Kinda reminds of a simpsons episode where someone wished for world peace and then later in the episode, martians attacked with boards with nails in them and took over. haha funny but somehow.. relevent in this discussion. Oh and "If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns". - somebody... take that for what you want it to say. |
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rasin Guest
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Upfront I do not advocate outlawing guns; in general our laws could use some tweaking here and there and of course could benefit from better enforcement. I also believe we should take our time in evaluating what needs to be changed due to this event. This event may be so aberrant that very few meaningful conclusions can be arrived at that can be applied to the future. Statistics are a very dangerous topic and just indicating the percentage changes may be only half the story. If there was 1 murder one year and there were two the following year the rate would have gone up by 100% or doubled which is a lot scarcer sounding than saying there were 2 murders this year and 1 last year. Fox News would report that murders have doubled, while mainstream media would probably include the rate of increase as a teaser tag line before commercial and then report the actual number of murders when they got to the article. (Have to get my Fox snide remark in there) Even if the rates in these countries did go up 50% they still have a long way to go to get to the USA homicide rate. So while a doubling of the homicide rate is not desirable making the connection between Gun laws and homicide rate isn't a slam dunk. It could be violent TV/Movies, more people moving into the city, high unemployment or any number of other theories various groups have put forward. With changes in employment laws due to the European Union there are many more people moving around these countries which may be a larger contributing factor than gun laws. Looking at the homicide rate for children under 15 in the USA is at a rate 12 times higher than other modern countries as a group (Australia, Finland, etc). This is a group, children under 15, that is unlikely to be carrying weapons even if most of our gun control laws were repealed. Given how well adjusted my friends were at 18-21 I am not so sure equipping colleges students with guns is a smart idea either. While I realize it was done by a liberal northeast university, Harvard did a study (not a poll) that shows that states with higher rates of gun ownership have a higher rate of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press01112007.html |
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mstone Member
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Statistics are wonderful things. How about these (also without much scientifical research)..... Since 1930, firearm deaths decreased 76%, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of firearms has quintupled. Among children, such deaths have decreased 89% since 1975. Firearm deaths are at an all-time annual low while the U.S. population is at an all-time high. In 2002, there were 762 such deaths nationally, including 60 among children. Today, the odds are more than a million to one against a child in the U.S. dying from a firearm accident. In 1995, firearms were involved in 1.5% of all fatal accidents. Deaths involving firearms have decreased 19% since 1993. Firearms are involved in 0.7% of accidental deaths nationally, and in 1% among children. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (41%), poisoning (16%), falls (15%), suffocation (5%), drowning (3%), fires (3%), medical mistakes (2%), environmental factors (1%), and bicycles (1%). Statistics on traffic fatalities from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention web site show that the 2002 motor vehicle traffic death rate was 44,982 people. Of those deaths, 16,919 were due to driving under the influence of alcohol, 2nd - 12,600 deaths due to falls, 3rd - 10,600 (poisoning), 4th – 4,500 (drowning), 5th – 4,100 (fires), 6th – 2,800 (choking), 7th – 1400 (firearm). According to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) data, there are about 258 million guns registered in the U.S. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (1994 – 2004), there are 6.4 million approved (new and used) NICS firearm transactions each year. Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. The highest number exceeded 920,000. In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." |
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macca Member
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rasin wrote:Upfront I do not advocate outlawing guns; in general our laws could use some tweaking here and there and of course could benefit from better enforcement. I also believe we should take our time in evaluating what needs to be changed due to this event. This event may be so aberrant that very few meaningful conclusions can be arrived at that can be applied to the future. I think that is usually what happens after such an event. We try to convince ourselves that it will never happen again, so we don't really need to change anything. |
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rasin Guest
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My concern is with knee jerk fixes that in the end either make things very bureaucratic but doesn't prevent anything or restrictions go overboard and impact innocent people aversely |
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ff12 Member
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The Gov. of Va. enacted an additional statute that would add anyone who has been "forced"? into psych help to be added to the do not to sell list. Hence the Va. tech gunman would not have been able to buy a gun. LEGALLY. |
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I'm gonna have to re read it in a minute, but I think I agree with most of what you said. I certainly agree that the school did the best that they could with the info that they had. When I watched the convocation yesterday, one of the most touching moments was the standing ovation and the excessive amount of applause that the VT students and other attendees gave to the President of VT to show their support for him.