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S. Smith Moderator
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Do you think the "school within a school" concept is good for new schools that open in mid-year? Is there anything that should be learned from the opening of Northern Middle as Northern High gets ready to open? |
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Steve Adkins Member 
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For those of us that no longer have students in middle or high school, can you define "school within a school" please? |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Steve Adkins wrote: For those of us that no longer have students in middle or high school, can you define "school within a school" please? Sure -- sorry about that. In a "school within a school," it's almost like two separate schools operating on the same campus. They've been used successfully for things like students with behavior/discipline problems and ninth grade academies (which sort of bridge the gap between middle and high school, which is a difficult transition for some kids). In this case, because Northern Middle and High schools were or are not going to be finished when school starts in August, they use the "school within a school" and house those kids together at their previously assigned school. They have separate teachers, separate administrators, everything -- they're just located at either Northwest or Northeast. Then when the new school is completed and opens in mid-year, they move all those kids, teachers, administrators, etc. at one time to the new school. This provides at least some continuity as far as having the same classes and teachers all year and students being able to bond with other kids who will be moving to the new school as well. The school board made this decision because they didn't feel it would be a good use of money to have to pay upkeep, heating/cooling costs, etc. on a new building if it was unoccupied. |
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Baseball Buddy Member 
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BB Jr is at Northern Middle. The school within a school is still in effect there and the kids from both areas do not interact. This is wrong and builds tension between the two. They are from different areas and use to different types of atmosphere. BB Jr can tell a big difference in the 2 just from the little interaction that they have had. Hopefully next year they will mix equally and become one school and call themselves Northern. |
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dmauser Member
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I was afraid that would happen. I hope next year will be better. I think that Dr. Misher tried to do some activites with both groups, but since continuity of education is the most important thing, I don't think you would have wanted to change teachers in the middle of the year. I hope that the HS will do better. Since we will have sports that should help with the blending of the two groups of students. My son will be 9th grade next year and I worry about the social aspect, but not as much as the educational issue. Starting in 9th grade, everything that a child does can effect their chance to get into the college of their choice. The BOE is screwing with my child's education and I choose to be proactive about it! |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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The problem started at NW. When the kids were separated this caused long time friends not to be able to interact. Then when they had a chance to at a NW School dance, Dr Misher said NO to the Northern kids going. This was the worst leadership call I had ever heard of. This upset kids and parents on both sides at least the ones I know. |
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dmauser Member
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I personally think that was a mistake also, but as I understand it Dr. Misher was trying to create a Northern identity and the day of the dance the NMS was doing things off campus all day. I know that many felt like red headed step children. I certainly know that we at NWMS tried to be as inclusion as we were allowed to. |
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GRITS Member
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dmauser wrote: I personally think that was a mistake also, but as I understand it Dr. Misher was trying to create a Northern identity and the day of the dance the NMS was doing things off campus all day. I know that many felt like red headed step children. I certainly know that we at NWMS tried to be as inclusion as we were allowed to. If I recall--NMS only planned to do an assembly off campus that included some type of awards presentation--something that is done in elementry school. My son felt really disappointed that he could not attend a dance that a majority of his friends went to. My 12 year old wanted to attend a dance because to him, it is a sense of maturity, doing something different to interact with old and new friends. But--NMS was being singled out, which is very difficult to try to build continuity and a personal identity. Yes, NMS has the identity alright, but it is not one that I choose to discuss at this time. I really am concerned with the School within a School concept for the high school next year. I feel personally that guilford county is setting itself up with failure on this one as far building a union between NE and NW. Rising ninth graders are at a point in their lives where they have already built strong relationships amongst other students from other areas withing the NW and N communities. Separating this age group now is only going to build a rivalry within rivalry concept. Yes, sports will be offered, but do you remember how the rivalry was between two different schools during football season? If the students have to endure any of the type of situations that the 6th graders did this year--there is going to be trouble. The instances consist of not only not being able to attend a dance, but also staying in a designated area on the NW campus before school began. Northern students were to stay on the stage. None were allowed to mingle with their old NW friends. Band students did not use the band room--which caused problems due to the noise of the instruments in the trailors. Band students were not required to purchase a mute, but my son was punished for not having one. He had to put his instrument up because he was too loud. Northern students were not allowed to check out library books until parents came forward with concern and immediately got that changed. I could go on, but the damage has already been done. If I thought for minute that someone out there from the GCS was reading and had a little bit of concern for the children, maybe I would express my opinion more because maybe something would get done about it. But, that is not GCS nor the BOE concerns. It all comes down to money being wasted by a building not being occupied half the school year. Oh yes, NM still has not passed for their water license through Raliegh. Lunches are being brought in from somewhere. A new well will not be dug until August. Classrooms are still being disturbed by construction workers, electricians and etc ...coming in to complete jobs. Don't misjudge me simply through my frustrations. I truely believe NM will be a wonderful school. I just wish things were 100% complete. Especially the bus problem. That is another subject and I will comment on that later. But I also wanted to comment on the building of relationships between the NE and NW students. These two sets of students were kept separated for 5 months by being on two diffenent campus'. Once the students were merged together in January, I am under the impression that the two identities would come together to build continuity. The students are still separated simply becauses of the classroom picking up and moving to one school. The students did not interact and still do not for the most, they are still referred to the NE or NW kids. This needs to be corrected because now they are Northern truely. Next year will be different---and holding off for another 5 months and starting this Northern Middle schoool in August would have been alot better. The transition would have been alot less stressful, and yes continuity and identity would have been established. Last edited on Apr 3rd, 2007 12:48 am by GRITS |
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dmauser Member
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Let me address some of these issues, as Pres. of NWMS I can tell you how we addressed some of the issues from our end. No one got to check out books for many weeks, due to problems within the media center-- this included NWMS students. Also the rumor about not being able to bring home books was not from our end, perhaps that was from Northern. Once books were checked out, then the kids were responsible and NWMS did not put parimeters on where they could go. I personally spoke to the media center specialist and Dr. Stewart about that. I agree that the band issue was bad, but out band room was busy all the time with NWMS students. I do know that our 6th graders didn't do technology for the first semester so that Northern could. I heard that the teacher for Northern didn't always use the lab, but it was available for him. I also think that blending two schools is a nightmare. The HS is trying to start the PTSA early so that we can do some things that might help. We will have a fall dance for all of the NHS kids and hopefully that will help. Northern kids did NOT have to stay on the stage. That was Dr. Misher's idea, but Dr. Stewart clearly stated it was not fair and to let everyone mingle. If they did go to the stage that would have been their choice if I understood the situation clearly. I didn't go down there to see it myself; so not sure if reality played out that well. The HS will be a real challenge as I see it. Any positive suggestions would be appreciated to help these kids. BTW, the new well is dug; waiting for passage from state and then they will connect to the school, still don't think it will be until this summer. I understood that hot meals have been prepared onsite for about a month... is that not correct? |
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GRITS Member
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Thanks for addressing some of my highlights. Let me just say that the decisions that have been made by Northern has been strickly by NMS and not NW. The NW PTSA has helped out tremendously in trying to intervene with some of the issues. So, please do not think that NW is to blame because I do know you guys tried to help out, and for that I am very thankful. I was told last week from another parent that meals were still being brought in. As far as the well, we all are under the impression that it will be dug over the summer. If it has already been dug, that's great. What is holding up the inspection for approval? The Northern kids were only to congregate on the stage, my son informed me of that. This possibly was changed once you guys stepped in, but it was Dr. Mishers's intentions at first. Yes, you are correct about the library--again it was NMS decision. Before a school within a school should operate all factors must be considered and worked out before even attempting. Meaning, all amenities including band rooms, technology, library, etc.. should be made available onsite of the current campus. Here is what is puzzling to me--if the NMS students were attending NW this year without the consideration of incorporating a school within a school, students who chose to take band would have been accomodated for regardless of the number of students. There is also a band room located in the senior high, which for the most part is usually occupied at one time during the day for all marching band students to practice together. I cannot comment on technology, for I am not involved, but I do recall hearing from other parents regarding that Dr. Misher did not want his students using this room eventhough it was offered. What needs to be considered here though is that again--the proper supplies were not made available to the technology class in the pods. When the entire talk of forming this type of school arose, I was under the impression that all amenities would be available to the students--that was the purpose of putting them on existing campus'--I truely believed that the focus was on our kids and tying to make available all possible resources. The downfall came (in my own opinion) is the principle of the school (NMS) wanted to do things differently only to identify his school with it's own identity. Hopefully, the high school and the elementry school will take all arguements as constructive criticism and make a change to make it possible for these students to achieve an excellent education. A school within a school can work--only if all resources are made available and are accepted. Again, thank you-- I know you are trying to help and you are doing an excellent job. |
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dmauser Member
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Grits, thanks for understanding about the situation that NWMS was in. Those NMS kids were 'my' kids' from Summerfield and I wanted the best for them. Money is always at the root of the issue, it cost $25000 plus to wire a trailer for technology; not cost effective for 1/2 year... of course now the HS kids could have used it. It all boils down to the perception of leaving a new school empty verses the true cost of doing a school in school. All the trailers that were moved, the pay for teachers to travel, the cost of running telephone lines, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention that the true cost is to the kids! Of course why would the education and well-being of the children be first! |
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GRITS Member
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dmauser wrote: Not to mention that the true cost is to the kids! Of course why would the education and well-being of the children be first! GOOD POINT!!!! Cost is the issue, therefore to do a school within a school really was not cost effective considering all the extras. That's why I stress to point out, uses of what does exist need to be acted upon when granted, regardless of location (on NW or NE campus) should be utilized. If not, then the school should not happen. It would not make sense to wire a trailer for technology if it is not going to be used for an entire year, but Dr. Misher should have agreed to use what was available. Ok, I'll get off my soap box. |
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GRITS Member
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This a little off the subject of SWS, but I just read in yesterday's paper about the Slates or mini--smart boards. I am all for this new way of teaching--technology is the way to go as far as our kids education. Maybe one way to relieve overcrowding in all the schools is to adapt the Blackboard. Then all the kids could stay at home, hook up to their personal computers and learn via the internet. Classroom lectures could also be taught via live web cam. The way I figure, by the time my daughter gets to middle school she will be required to have her own lap top. Just think, no more long bus rides, and parents of driving teenagers would not have to worry so much of the flying down Northwest school road. I know there is more to it than that--but it's a thought. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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I can't believe it, NMS has been operating with approximately < 200 6th graders only for < 3 months and already a teacher has said to me that she has no room!!!! This is a brand new school built to relieve overcrowding at NW and NE and was built larger for a reason (to be able to accomodate future growth). What will it be like come August when the school is supposed to be at full capacity? |
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dmauser Member
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What does that mean, she has no room? Is it the room she is teaching in? How many students does she have? What subject does she teach? BTW, Northern Middle is going to be an opt-out school for Hairston if they don't make AYP this year. That will add to the numbers of children coming. I was on that construction team, and the first thing I said to them; was where will we put the trailers! They all laughed; but I was serious. There is very little room for trailers, but I think they can put 4 without losing any fields. It is kind of like "Field of Dreams," build it and they will come. With 225 kids in 6th grade, there is room for growth in that grade, so I am anxious to get more info from your teacher! |
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Steve Adkins Member
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dmauser wrote: BTW, Northern Middle is going to be an opt-out school for Hairston if they don't make AYP this year. I am not sure I understand what you are saying in this sentence. Can you clarify - what is an opt out school - who is hairston - what is AYP Thanks |
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dmauser Member
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Hairston is a middle school located in Greensboro, about 14 miles from Northern. Opt out is a term that means that parents can 'opt out' of their assigned school if that school does not make AYP(I believe this is annual yearly progress) for 3 years in a row. It is a sanction of No Child Left Behind national program. Only title 1 schools are covered. Eastern Middle and Northern were chosen as the schools that the parents of Hairston my choose to send their children to. GCS has to provide transportation. Usually a small number of children use this choice. Last year 128(more than usual) from Hairston went to Kiser, and 26 to Southeast. Kiser is much closer to Hairston, than SE and is also a 'city' school. hope that helps. of yea, their are subgroups of students, by race, by sex, by economic status and special status for learning disabilities, if any one person in any subgroup fails to have the growth that the government dictates, the entire school is labeled as 'failing' |
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GRITS Member
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Hi dMauser--After we spoke today I pulled Hairston's report card. The AYP is more of an reflection of the teacher's correct? Unfortunately, the students are the ones who are not performing up to standard. If I am correct, according to last year's test scores, these students were performing in the 60% but < 100 % range. How will this impact the current students report card overall at Northern? Of course Northern has no prior end of grades other than the ones from 5th grade to compare, but if that is taken into consideration, the students from Summerfield score in the 90 and > percentile range. |
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dmauser Member
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Good question and observations. It can , but does not have to impact the report card negatively. We can hope that those that chose to opt out either are up to par, or can learn quickly and be brought up to grade level. A strong teaching team is very important, but so is parental involvement, school atmosphere and expectations. I don't know how many will opt out, as it is a long way for those families. Since so many opted out last year, then maybe those are the ones that weren't happy at Hairston. |
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Cracker Jax Member 
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Misher announced to the parents (at an awards assembly yesterday) that NGMS is going to be operating at full capacity next year and that he and the Vice Principal are already looking at sites on the grounds to place trailers because if more enroll, there will be no place to put them. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus on fixing the problems at Hairston (or wherever) rather than just shipping the kids to already over crowded schools? |
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dmauser Member
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The numbers at the budget meeting did not seem like Northern would be at capacity. Those show 698 enrollment and I know that the school was built for more than that. He could be maxed out of classroom teachers, but perhaps each class in under full enrollment. Of course it makes more sense to fix Hairston, but if GCS takes title 1 money then they have to go by Federal rules, and that means after 3 years of failing AYP's the parents get a choice to move or stay. I think that Hairston passed last year, but you have to pass two years in a row to get off of 'sanctions.' Let's hope for many reasons that they pass-mainly so we know those kids are getting a decent education. I have yet to hear how mission possible teachers are doing in Title 1 schools, for the millions of dollars tied up in this program, they should be making some progress. |
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GRITS Member
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Are there not other Title I schools within Greensboro that are closer to Hairston (other than Kiser) that these could attend. GCS will have to provide transportation--I already have a huge issue with that! I know that my son's 90 minute bus ride will not lengthen, because transportation can not go over 90 minutes. But, it will not be shortened either. I noticed that this school also has a 36 (% ???) turnover rate as far as teachers for 1 year. What happened to Griers plans to move teachers to problem schools with a pay increase just to get the subject up to par? |
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Steve Adkins Member
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dmauser wrote: Hairston is a middle school located in Greensboro, about 14 miles from Northern.thank you |
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dmauser Member
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for better info you can go to gcsnc.com and look under board members and then meeting materials-- click on attachment for opt out schools. Almost every middle school is either an opt out choice or has the abilities to opt out... sad state that we live in! |
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GRITS Member
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so you mean, if I chose to I could opt out my child from NM to NW? But, I don't see that as a choice. I guess I answered my own question. Yes--you are correct--very sad situation for GC schools after looking at the charts. Last edited on Apr 15th, 2007 03:46 pm by GRITS |
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macca Member 
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I wouldn't think that either NWMS OR NWHS would be an opt-out school for anyone, b/c we are over capacity already. I went to the links suggested by dmauser and don't see NWMS listed as an option for anyone to choose as an option..... |
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macca Member
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GRITS wrote:so you mean, if I chose to I could opt out my child from NM to NW? Oooopppss! I see you discovered that for yourself! I did my research on the GCS site, then got distracted by other info and just came directly to post on the forum... Didn't see that you had already posted.  |
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GRITS Member
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you know, this is all just hunky dory that our district is doing well on their AYP, and it's great that we can extend ourselves beyond capacity to help other kids perform up to standard and possibly better. But, the problems are still not being resolved. A simple immediate quick fix or a patch I should say is what is being tossed around. There are are excellent teachers in our district--the school system has got to figure out a way to entice the kids or motivate them to want to learn. Parental involvement is a great big plus, especially in the NW and NM school area. I also noticed that these schools were located in low poverty areas, which I do not criticize. But, parental involvement may not be as easily achievable do to employment. Still, that should not be a reason for the teachers not to be teaching at standard. GCS and the BOE are to blame. |
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dmauser Member
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The reason that NWHS and NWMS have not yet been used is location as well as being crowded. You can't opt out unless you are in a failing school. In the next few years look for NW to be used if we can't get these schools up to par. Overcrowding is not considered important by the Fed. gov. although it is of course better to utilize seats than bring in more trailers. Unfortunately the schools with seat space are those that are failing. |
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dmauser Member
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In today's climate of teaching (not enough to go around) it is hard to get enough teachers, much less enough GOOD teachers. Another problem is tenure. Many teachers are protected once they get tenure, whether they are good or not! It is next to impossible to fire a tenured teacher and many of them are not going to change the way they teach. In the 21st century we need innovative, foward thinking teachers. Many don't want to teach in high proverty schools often due to discipline problems, and lack of parental support. Ask any teacher at Summerfield or NW or Northern, if for a few thousand dollars if they would be willing to move to an impoverished school... ain't goin happen-at least not often. If it does, would we be happy with teachers that are displaced at these schools that can't meet educational standards? I know I hope for the best teacher to fit my child each year, it doesn't happen; but that is what I want to happen. |
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macca Member
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How is Grier's program to entice highly qualified teachers away from schools that perform better to those that need to bring up their scores? |
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dmauser Member
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I haven't heard anything about that at any meeting, and I am very curious also. I did hear that one principal said it had enticed teachers to interview! |
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