Northwest Observer Forums > Northwest-Area Towns > Summerfield > Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously?
Northwest Observer Forums > Northwest-Area Towns > Summerfield > Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously? |
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EditorPS Administrator 
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Okay everyone, we've discussed this before but in light of recent events, I'm gong to ask again -- and I'd like to hear from those of you who have posted your real name on this forum as well as those who haven't. As many of you know, Summerfield Town Council member Dwayne Crawford has made it his mission in recent months to identify our anonymous online forum posters -- to be more precise, only a select group of posters -- specifically, those who have made comments that are not favorable to either him or Councilwoman Becky Strickland. How do you feel about a council member accessing our forum database via what he claims is a software "glitch" and publishing forum participants' I.P. addresses on his Web site and via e-mails? Do forum participants, who are local citizens, have the right to remain anonymous when they are discussing local issues? Is Crawford's behavior appropriate for an elected official (or for that matter, is it appropriate for anyone)? |
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macca Member 
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Well, I'll bite. Obviously, since I post anonymously, I believe I have the right to do so.... I'd like to know if my rights have been violated by his actions? If he posted my IP address on his web site, couldn't that create problems for me? And what is this deal about a "glitch" -- Does finding it give him the right to break into the forum? What is it about this forum that bothers him so much he would do this? There are fewer than 200 people who post here .... |
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DOGGETTJA Member 
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Patti- Lets call it what it is. Dwayne Crawford hacked into the NWO forum for the purpose of getting people names. It concerns me that a member of a group who got elected on a platform of "fair and open" government would think it was alright to do that. It concerns me as a citizen that people's first admendment rights of free speech have been violated. It concerns me that the information he gained will be used to intimidate people. Seems lke a real abuse of power along with a violation of peoples first admendment rights. It further concerns me the ethics of breaking into somebody's private company for the purpose of gaining information. I suppose I could break in to your home but it certainly would not make it right and I possibly might go to jail. Dwayne has broken into your house and I for one feel like he has broken into my house too. I post under my own name obviously because after serving on the Town Council and going through the abuse the last couple of years not much bothers me. Plus I have reached a stage in life where I have trouble remembering my name anyway and an anoumous name would further confuse me. I don't care that other people use other names. On this forum for the purpose of discussion they are who ever they say they are. Does not bother me at all that they may be somebody else at the grocery store. On this forum I know what I need to know. |
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StewartM Member 
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I agree with everything Jane said (including remembering my name)..... DC is nothing but a hacker......If it was a "glitch" then why didn't he delete it and not put in on his Web site.....Dwayne tell the truth, you started with lies to get elected, now your hacking into people's systems......For what?...Do you think you are "BIG BROTHER"? I think people can use any name they want....There has been a lot of Americans dying to give us that right everyday.....I don't care what your name is, In fact I like not knowing your name....It can allow you to express yourself more. Its that not what the forum is all about ?? Its not your name he is worried about , its your ideals and thoughts.... Now that he is the government "BIG BROTHER" is watching you.....  |
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Steve Adkins Member 
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Agree with Jane It is sad one of our local elected officials is a hacker, and now uses a "talent" or better yet "misguided technical knowledge" to violate folks rights to free speech. Wonder what the ACLU would have to say about Dwayne's behavior? This forum has been in existence for about 18 months, folks join with the knowledge anonymity is protected. Play by the rules, or don't join, go away !! It's interesting that when candidates were running for office, Susan Bray, Ray Riffe didn't seem to mind participants were using anonymous names, they still treated them with respect.........geez, they must have realized there were real people/voters/taxpayers behind those names. I think the "glitch" is in Dwayne's personality. If he were paying attention to the bigger picture, ie the town is he supposed to be concerned about, he would be more focused on "what folks were saying", not consumed with "who's saying it". Dwayne's behavior is totally inappropriate, I don't trust him, I don't respect him, I don't care who knows it, least of all Dwayne himself. |
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Hairbrush Member
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I think we all know how I feel about the harassment I received from Dwayne Crawford. Luckily I am strong will, okay so maybe my family would say stubborn, and am not going to let anyone push me around. Someone else though might be intimidated into not posting anymore and to me that is an infringement of your 1st amendment rights. I feel like Dwayne is on a witch hunt. There was a case in the past couple of years where perspective students decided to hack into some colleges' computers to see about their admissions. Dozens of students were refused admission to Carnegie Mellon, Harvard and MIT because the schools felt that were ethical and moral character concerns with hacking into their computer sites. How can what Dwayne does be any different? |
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bama80 Member 
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I feel that Dwayne broke the law in numerous ways, infringed upon our rights and also used the information to harass and intimidate certain people. I also began restricting the information that I posted on here because I was afraid of what else he could be capable of or willing to do. If he believes I had a part in anything against him, would he send me a computer virus, possibly also affecting my work network and getting me fired? Would he send some crazy vigilantes to my house and throw molotov coctails in my yard accidentally burning down my house. -Of course some of these seem far fetched but I am not experienced in hacking nor in revenge. I have no idea what hackers do in their spare time or what they do when they get angry. It is all pretty creepy to me and if a restraining order from the site was possible, I would ask for one against Dwayne. Then maybe I would once again feel free to discuss things like my handsome son or where I work on here without fear of someone using that information to get revenge or intimidate me to not post. This place has definitely been affected since the suspicion arose that dwayne was hacking the site. I hope someday it will return to its normal self. |
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FatPappy Member 
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Good points all. I just want to add that Dwayne's actions have clearly exposed serious flaws in his character. If he can't abide by the rules, he has no business being a community leader. Creepy is what it is. |
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Skiddles Member 
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It is scary to think that someone would use their skills to enter into what is suppose to be a private space, gather information and use this knowledge to harass others. This is just wrong! I have had my property broken into and stolen before. The thieves stole furniture, nick-knacks and all of my clothes. What you are left with is an awful feeling, the feeling that you have been violated, and then to top it off with harassment... well, this is way wrong!! How can you trust someone that would do this? I can't! |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Good Morning everyone, Thank you for your responses to my questions regarding anonymous posting. On the subject of forum hacking, we have taken steps to insure that our forum software is more secure. I cannot, however, guarantee that it is hacker-free -- it reminds me of my dogs, both of whom live inside the house ... their lives are relatively simple and they have only a few goals, one of which is to escape to the outdoors; while we're going about our daily lives, sometimes oblivious to them while we're focusing on 1,000 other big and small things, like our jobs and raising kids and volunteering, they're just lieing in wait for any opportunity to get past us and through that door. Sometimes I envy them their simple, narrow-minded focus ... but that's where dogs are different from elected officials - one is supposed to be simple-minded, while the other isn't. We also have generated more than a little outside interest in the fact that an elected official accessed our database, obtained information from it which he had no right to, presumedly flushed out a select group of anonymous posters (only those who spoke unfavorably about his performance as a council member) and publicized that information. I will keep you posted (no pun intended). |
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SaltyDog Member 
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Yes, I obviously think the right to post anonymously should be preserved. I assume this forum was intended to be a place for free expression of ideas and discussion of topics relevant to the northwest communities that the Northwest Observer serves. I believe that anonymity can sometimes allow discussion participants to concentrate on what is said rather than who said it. I do realize that anonymity can be used as cover to make inappropriate personal attacks but I think for the most part the moderators stop that kind of activity. It is outrageous that Dwayne, on his own authority, has decided that he has the right to overrule the policies and procedures established by the owner of this board (the NWO) by attempting to expose the identies of anonymous members. His actions are definitely unethical and likely illegal. As an elected official Dwayne's behavior is particularly egregious. Where does it end for Dwayne? What if he disagrees with secret ballots in elections? Will he take it upon himself to attempt to hack voting machines and then publish the identities and ballots of those who's votes he does not like? Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 03:35 pm by SaltyDog |
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FatPappy Member
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SaltyDog wrote:
Exactly. This is serious, serious stuff he's messin' with here. There should be serious, serious consequences. Who knows what else he's done that we don't know about? What he's done (that we know of) is dead wrong. The fact that he bragged about doin' it, that's just dead stupid! Wrong an' stupid are not qualities we need in a leader, no matter how many times he recites the magic phrase "no taxes". If that's all you want in a leader, get a trained parrot or a chimp with a sign around his neck. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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"We are only falsehood, duplicity, contradiction; we both conceal and disguise ourselves from ourselves." Blaise Pascal Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 03:21 pm by Jim Flynt |
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bama80 Member
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The difference is that Dwayne violated the rules of the forum and I suspect several laws in his doings. On the other hand, the forum posters, to my knowledge have not broken any laws, and from other precedents that I have seen (in my time googling the subject) have only exercised their freedom of speech. Anonymity on a message board is more common than you think Jim. I know you said the forums you frequent do not allow anonymity but there are many that are there for that prupose. Instead of the forum, would Dwayne take issue with a full page ad in the paper or numerous signs on the side of the road- all equally anonymous. Maybe he is one of those that go around pulling up signs even in other people's yards. |
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FatPappy Member
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"...if there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein,". --Justice Robert Jackson in the 1943 case West Virginia v. Barnette |
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bama80 Member
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from wikipedia on blaise pascal: I like the last line the best. Great comparison Jim. I'm glad you referenced this guy. I see numerous parallels to the subject at hand. From as early as his eighteenth year, Pascal suffered from a nervous ailment that left him hardly a day without pain. In 1647, a paralytic attack so disabled him that he could not move without crutches. His head ached, his bowels burned, his legs and feet were continually cold, and required wearisome aids to circulation of the blood; he wore stockings steeped in brandy to warm his feet. Partly to get better medical treatment, he moved to Paris with his sister Jacqueline. His health improved, but his nervous system had been permanently damaged. Henceforth, he was subject to deepening hypochondria, which affected his character and his philosophy. He became irritable, subject to fits of proud and imperious anger, and seldom smiled.[2] |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: "...if there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein,". Interesting that you would quote from that case. For the uninitiated: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school. From Wikipedia. Are you also opposed to students saluting the flag and pledging allegiance or are you simply in support of those portions of this ruling that support your limited position? |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Are you also opposed to students saluting the flag and pledging allegiance or are you simply in support of those portions of this ruling that support your limited position? I am not opposed to students saluting the flag or reciting the pledge. I am opposed to their being forced to do so. Are you in favor of petty officials violating the first amendment? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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bama80 wrote: from wikipedia on blaise pascal: I like the last line the best. Great comparison Jim. I'm glad you referenced this guy. I see numerous parallels to the subject at hand. Bama, maybe we both can agree to agree with Pascal's astute observation that from Nature all men are wretched without God? |
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bama80 Member
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^some women too but that is a different quote and quoter. OK give me the off topic, I know. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Are you in favor of petty officials violating the first amendment? Perhaps I am that rarity among Americans that still believe in trials by jury and that an accused is innocent until proven guilty. I am also mindful that public anonymous heresay postings to an Internet forum do not and would not constitute admissible evidence in the American system of jurisprudence, and I say, Thank God for that. A man is also entitled to the right to confront his accuser in the American judicial system. In fact, that right and other rights under our Constitution is one of the many things which American troops are so proudly fighting for on distant shores. God Bless all of our troops in harm's way. Even those few soldiers who may not be fighting for our same rights as the majority of our other troops. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 04:36 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Jim Flynt Member
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bama80 wrote: ^some women too but that is a different quote and quoter. You know some wretched women too heh? |
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bama80 Member
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Also most people are aware of the fact that what is on the internet is open to anyone and any opinion and should be taken as such- mixed fact, opinion, and some ... other stuff. Shoot I have even seen a site that claimed you don't have to change the oil in your car ever! Did I believe it- no. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:FatPappy wrote:Are you in favor of petty officials violating the first amendment? Dwayne has admitted, bragged in fact, that he has gotten into the site with the stated purpose of exposing anonymous posters, obviously to intimidate them. And you're not outraged by that? |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:A man is also entitled to the right to confront his accuser in the American judicial system. In fact, that right is one of the many things which Mr. Mike's son is so proudly fighting for on distant shores. God Bless Him and all of our troops in harm's way. This a forum for discussion, not a court. How dare you use Mr Mike's boy!? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: And you're not outraged by that? Dwayne nor anyone else has to hack into this site to find out "who" I am. I have the courage and freedom from fear to use my real name when posting. Of course, I also have enough manners and good sense given to me by my Mama not to go around and anonymously call another adult by the name "Boy" so perhaps I do have less to fear than you. Again, I don't place much reliance on the credibility of what someone who posts anonymously tells me. As I said earlier, that kind of heresay would not be admissible in court. So it doesn't register much alarm with me whether in court or on an Internet forum. The larger question here should be why, if you, others and The Northwest Observer truly believe a law has been broken, aren't you over at the District Attorney's Office filing a criminal complaint rather than on here telling me and the rest of the world who simply don't have any power to rectify the accused wrongs and crimes of others? That is a question that bears an answer if not from you, certainly from The Northwest Observer. |
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SaltyDog Member
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I am also mindful that public anonymous heresay postings to an Internet forum do not and would not constitute admissible evidence in the American system of jurisprudence, and I say, Thank God for that. Huh? Hmmmm....didn't know this was a court of law I'm posting in. Nobody read me my rights or swore me in or anything! Gosh, anonymous heresay on an internet message board - who ever heard of such a thing? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote: I am also mindful that public anonymous heresay postings to an Internet forum do not and would not constitute admissible evidence in the American system of jurisprudence, and I say, Thank God for that. Perhaps we simply disagree on the standards we use in our personal education and awareness in where we obtain our facts, be it a courtroom or an internet forum. I doubt that our great universities would accept as fact in student thesis or term papers comments from anonymous posters as constituting "fact." That is why so many of what are purported to be facts around here, really don't stand up to the light of day with only a modicum of real research from recognized authorities and authoritative resources. Some of the logic and reasoning bandied about is equally flawed. I'll leave the internet forums to you if you wish to determine your set of facts, while I much prefer the many wonderful texts and libraries so close at hand in the many great universities and public libraries of this state. But I will hand it to you that the internet sure beats the staid old musty libraries for good humor, merriment and prankstering. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 04:47 pm by Jim Flynt |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Jim Flynt wrote: The larger question here should be why, if you, others and The Northwest Observer truly believe a law has been broken, aren't you over at the District Attorney's Office filing a criminal complaint rather than on here telling me and the rest of the world who simply don't have any power to rectify the accused wrongs and crimes of others? That is a question that bears an answer if not from you, certainly from The Northwest Observer. For the record, the Northwest Observer is very aware of the implications of Dwayne's behavior and we are not sitting by idle, as it might appear. We simply don't feel it is in our best professional interest to discuss it on this forum and at this time. If and when the appropriate time comes, we will offer full disclosure on what actions are being taken. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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EditorPS wrote: For the record, the Northwest Observer is very aware of the implications of Dwayne's behavior and we are not sitting by idle, as it might appear. We simply don't feel it is in our best professional interest to discuss it on this forum and at this time. If and when the appropriate time comes, we will offer full disclosure on what actions are being taken. Patti, Thank-you for your response. Please know that I fully support you and The Northwest Observer in the prosecution of any and all who commit crimes of any nature to the fullest extent of the law. If any accused is indeed proven guilty in a court of competent jurisdiction, then that person should be punished as allowable under the laws of this state and country. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:FatPappy wrote:And you're not outraged by that? Whenever I think of good manners, I always think of you first. I am not going to discuss any possible legal action in progress or not on this forum at this time. Even I have better sense than that. The hacking was bad enough, but using that information to try and intimidate people is seriously wrong! That's actually the bigger question. I don't know why you are not outraged by that and why you continue to dance around it. |
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SaltyDog Member
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Are statements true or false, educated or ignorant, authoritative or heresay simply because the author is identifiable or anonymous? I don't concede that if I use my real name then what I say is "fact" and if I use an assumed name then what I say is "heresay". Readers of my posts must judge my writings on their own merits. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: I don't know why you are not outraged by that and why you continue to dance around it. I'm not dancing around anything. Please see my earlier response to Patti Stokes above. I simply believe that the accused should be tried in courtrooms and not in the press. Which in this case, extends to a forum owned and operated by the press. Finally, in my book a person is innocent until proven guilty and hereay evidence is not only inadmissible in a courtroom, it does not constitute acceptable nor credible consideration when presented anonymously. You know, we are not all that far removed from the lynch mobs of history who decided to take the 'law' into their own hands as they saw fit and for those they deemed guilty without a trial. I simply refuse to ride along with the "mob" around here who would just as willingly lynch another today as the becloaked night riders of southern justice in the past did. Mob rules are one and the same, whether in your history or your histrionics. Thank-you though for your recognition and acknowledgement of my manners and gentility by the way. Mama would be oh so proud to hear you say those nice kind things. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 05:12 pm by Jim Flynt |
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SaltyDog Member
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Keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them. -Anonymous |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:You know, we are not all that far removed from the lynch mobs of history who decided to take the 'law' into their own hands as they saw fit and for those they deemed guilty without a trial. Sort o' like Dwayne decidin' on his own to "out" anonymous posters he disagreed with. Since he admitted it using his own name it must be fact. |
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StewartM Member
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FatPappy wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: Its OK Pappy....My son knows what he is doing and why...He is helping us to keep freedom of speech like many of soldiers before him....We don't have to agree, like, approve or believe what people say or how they say it....We are the land of the free.... I am just thankful to live in America where everyone right or wrong can voice their opinion. I am proud to have 2 sons who are willing to pay the price for all of us.... |
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Steve Adkins Member
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EditorPS wrote: Okay everyone, we've discussed this before but in light of recent events, I'm gong to ask again -- and I'd like to hear from those of you who have posted your real name on this forum as well as those who haven't. As many of you know, Summerfield Town Council member Dwayne Crawford has made it his mission in recent months to identify our anonymous online forum posters -- to be more precise, only a select group of posters -- specifically, those who have made comments that are not favorable to either him or Councilwoman Becky Strickland. How do you feel about a council member accessing our forum database via what he claims is a software "glitch" and publishing forum participants' I.P. addresses on his Web site and via e-mails? Do forum participants, who are local citizens, have the right to remain anonymous when they are discussing local issues? Is Crawford's behavior appropriate for an elected official (or for that matter, is it appropriate for anyone)? And Mike, we are thankful for your sons Now, let's all get back on topic please Last edited on Mar 14th, 2007 03:21 am by Steve Adkins |
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WHE Member 
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EditorPS wrote: As many of you know, Summerfield Town Council member Dwayne Crawford has made it his mission in recent months to identify our anonymous online forum posters -- to be more precise, only a select group of posters -- specifically, those who have made comments that are not favorable to either him or Councilwoman Becky Strickland. How do you feel about a council member accessing our forum database via what he claims is a software "glitch" and publishing forum participants' I.P. addresses on his Web site and via e-mails? Do forum participants, who are local citizens, have the right to remain anonymous when they are discussing local issues? Is Crawford's behavior appropriate for an elected official (or for that matter, is it appropriate for anyone)? I couldn't stand it any more... Given that DC has apparently already lost the total trust and respect of many (most?) in the community, it occurs to me that he has also failed to uphold his oath of office, taken at the beginning of his term. I question, therefore, his capacity to justly serve as councilman since promises apparently mean nothing to him. If nothing else, I see this as insincere and deceiving from the start. A second observation is that by simply accessing this forum, DC had to push the requisite "I Agree" button as a condition of access. It clearly includes the following rule: "Respect participants rights to remain anonymous, do not speculate on their identities". Based on the fact that he agreed to those contractual terms, and then chose to ignore and violate them, it stands to reason that he is definitely not within his right to expose anyone related to this forum. I would further speculate that DC, while obviously more of a nuisance and pain than anything else, is hardly worth the significant effort expended to chastise his puerile behavior. In other words, just ignore him; maybe he will just go away. And even if he doesn't, concentrate instead on the greatness that Summerfield has to offer. He is an outcast, and is best left to his own devices. Summerfield, on the other hand, is a diamond in the rough. |
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Cracker Jax Member 
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GREAT post WHE!!! I agree on point with everything you've said, except for the ignoring part. We tried that for months. It only seems to aggravate him more and escalates the situation. I've said it before. He's like a puppy who gets no attention and if you ignore him, he's jumping up and down in your face saying "Notice me! Notice me!" Well, we've noticed and we don't like what we see Mr. Crawford. I know of at least one person who has had their name removed entirely from this forum. They don't want Crawford prying into their private lives. I met another person tonight who said that she would love to jump in here and chat with us, but she fears what will happen if she does. Will her name or her family be dragged through the mud because of something she posts? Will he research the history of her business or private life and lay it out on the street for the entire community to read? Crawford has most certainly tried to intimidate the participants of this forum and in doing so has infringed on our right to speak freely. The fact that he may have broken the law in the process is heinous indeed. I am so proud of Patti for standing up for our rights and making that wonderful speech at the council meeting tonight. My hands hurt from clapping so hard!!! |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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But WHE that is the point. Dwayne hacked the system. He didn't read any agreement or push any button. He broke in. I hope the NWO continues to push for resolution to this problem so that people will feel safe to join and post. So we don't agree with the CC, where are they defending themselves? Why aren't they having a dialogue. Why do they have to break in and sneak around? I do worry a little that DC will hack my system, not surewhat he would find, but he is not going to stop me from my freedom of speech. |
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jimia Member 
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Dwayne Crawford and Becky Strickland are narrow minded, vindictive people who do not deserve to be in public service. They both need to resign and let this town move forward. These are people whose only goal in life is to create discord and animosity as a mechanism to be in the public spotlight. You have had your 15 minutes of fame, now go away!!!!! No one wants you representing the town of Summerfield anymore. You both are an embarrassment to the town and public service in general. NWO, please pursue legal action against Dwayne Crawford to the greatest extent possible. He would be fired in any corporation for those actions. Jimia P.S. Please tighten up your security! |
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jimia Member
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I would like to make one additional comment. No one should refrain from expressing themselves in this forum for fear of reprisals. There is nothing Dwayne Crawford can do about freedom of speech. There is no way for him to hurt you. Let me guess. Richard Nixon was Dwayne’s childhood hero. Jimia P.S. I will post my real name when and if I feel like it. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Amen, Jimia!!! |
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Cracker Jax Member
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I agree Jimia! No need to post your real name here! We like Jimia just fine! Come back more often! |
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EditorPS Administrator
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jimia wrote: NWO, please pursue legal action against Dwayne Crawford to the greatest extent possible. He would be fired in any corporation for those actions. Hi Jimia, I can assure you that we are currently pursuing all available options in this case. As for tightening up our security, our forum software has been updated, which supposedly fixed the "glitch" that Dwayne spoke of. Is it totally immune to hackers who are determined to get through? I'm afraid I can't guarantee that -- I wish I could. We were caught offguard the first time, but have learned some very valuable lessons and will do everything we can to make sure that we have no more intrusions. Thanks for joining us on the forum! Last edited on Mar 16th, 2007 03:44 am by EditorPS |
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Stonefree Member 
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YES!!! 100% You DO have the right to exercise free speech either anonymously or not. The bigger question is should Crawford be reported to the federal government. It is illegal to intentially gain access to information whether it is a "glitch" or not. I find the use of the word "Glitch" inappropriate. I have used this forum alot and never had someone's information like IP address "popup" on my screen, which would indicate he went looking for a way into this information. http://www.cybercrime.gov/ECPA2701_2712.htm THIS IS SERIOUS AND SHOULDN'T BE DISMISSED! Stonefree -- Steven Lantz (i am not afraid to have you know my name, that kind of fear is thrived on by those that are anti-American and wish to silence people for their thoughts. I love this country too much to have that kind of fear be spread.) Last edited on Mar 16th, 2007 07:38 pm by Stonefree |
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Stonefree Member
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Additionally, I read in the paper that Crawford may have put some of this information up on his website. If so what is his website address. I think it would be prudent to contact his hosting provider and inform them of the situation and give them a link to the article. He very well may have violated his TOS with them as well by posting that information. Stonefree -- still Steven |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Hi Stonefree, Dwayne's Web site has been taken down, as of last week. |
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Stonefree Member
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That is good. It is such a shame that someone who can, on one hand, gain the trust of people to elect him to the council, can turn around and violate that trust so easily. |
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FatPappy Member
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Stonefree wrote:That is good. It is such a shame that someone who can, on one hand, gain the trust of people to elect him to the council, can turn around and violate that trust so easily. That there was some mighty interestin' readin' in that link up yonder, Stonefree! Pappy don't know 'bout that illegal part yet, but I do know Crawford done violated the trust o' the people big time. Mighty accomodatin' of him to email the evidence ag'in hisse'f to ever'body an' his brother, too. Hee hee! "Look what I did 'cause I'm smarter'n y'all!" He needs to step down now. But don't leave town just yet... |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: He needs to step down now. I think we all know that is not going to happen, no matter how glorious the flights of fancy our minds might make or how vainglorious the clamorous voices of political melodrama and theater. I rather suspect that many of the rather strong feelings against both of the two current town council members really is simply nothing more than a continuation of bitter feelings from the losing side at the hands of voters in the last election. Given their political philosophy on taxes and parks and the role of government, it is doubtless the 'CC' candidates could ever have done a single thing which would have found favor with (m)any of the voices now rising with the demand they resign so a former status quo in the political order could be instantly reestablished and everyone could then march in lockstep without dissent or division. It is political drama at both its best and worst with equal parts comedy and tragedy. With neither side seeing their own role in this melodramatic political play any clearer than their failure in not seeing the role of the other clearly. What no one seems to see, is that the other side has nothing to lose and your side has nothing to gain. And that is true for both sides. And that is what makes this all so sad. Last edited on Mar 16th, 2007 09:00 pm by Jim Flynt |
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BreBre Member 
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I believe we have the right to post anonymously. A few reasons... This forum allows it, freedom of speech, this is America, I bought this computer, I pay for my internet access, I pay my taxes (I believe I said that in another section LOL). It takes someone that has nothing else better to do to sit at home nights on end (wonder how many nights, or weeks, or months it took?) to hack into the forum and find a "glitch." How would all of us normal posters know that there was a "glitch?" We wouldn't, because we are here to post and have fun. Not to snoop around, hack (which is ILLEGAL by the way, DUH!), and try to ruin lives. I don't know how it would ruin lives tho... Anywho that's my opinion. We all have one. BreBre |
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FatPappy Member
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FatPappy wrote:He needs to step down now. |
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Vicki White-Lawrence Member 
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I must agree with others who've posted here. I've never thought about who is posting, and while I have learned the identity of some (when they chose to tell me) it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I like the exchange of ideas, regardless of who is exchanging them. I can agree, or disagree, with someone without knowing who it is. The anonymity probably helps facilitate some of the exchange, because we don't get all wrapped up in who said what in terms of what we already know, or think we know, about that person. |
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Politics Member
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Does anyone have a link to Dwayne Crawford's website? Also, are they any links where he's exosed the IP addresses of users of this forum? I'd like to post this story on a National News website and need some some corroborating links to support the threats. Thanks |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Politics wrote: Does anyone have a link to Dwayne Crawford's website? Also, are they any links where he's exosed the IP addresses of users of this forum? Wouldn't it be more fun to have the 'hanging' tomorrow and then start the trial on Tuesday? |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: Wouldn't it be more fun to have the 'hanging' tomorrow and then start the trial on Tuesday? I think Dwayne's handlin' his own hangin'. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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I guess about any day now the Federal Marshalls should be swooping down on Summerfield in search for this desperado? Have ya'll tipped off the local and national TV stations yet for this big upcoming event? But still, a good old high tech lynching (as Justice Thomas once noted) by the Summerfield 'Mob' (er, posse) would still put the face of Summerfield justice on this heinous crime. You can always have a 'trial' later if anyone gets overly concerned about innocence and guilt and proof and evidence and such other silly stuff. Gosh, while you're at it, why not hang a few of those other citizens who are or might be opposed to parks and opposed to paying taxes at the same time? That'd teach 'em a thing or too about messin' with the 'justice system' and 'powers that be' that run Summerfield and it would guarantee the town made the national news for sure. Think of how much fun that would be...... Last edited on Mar 19th, 2007 01:22 am by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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I don't know if Dwayne's got sense enough to handle all that. He's got his hand full right now just hangin' hisse'f. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: I don't know if Dwayne's got sense enough to handle all that. He's got his hand full right now just hangin' hisse'f. Which day this week can we expect him to be handcuffed and taken to jail Pappy? Surely them Fed boys aren't going to leave a dangerous criminal like that running loose and victimizing the public? Here's hoping that you and Patti Stokes will keep us all abreast of this imminent arrest! |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Jim, if you feel a need to make this about who is, and isn't for the park, that is your perogative. However, as for the facts of this case, I couldn't care less whether Dwayne Crawford is in favor of, or opposed to the park. My issues with him right now have nothing, and I repeat, NOTHING whatsoever do with the park. The issue I have with Dwayne is that he gained access to confidential information from this forum's database, said he did it via a "glitch," e-mailed me and told me exactly how he did it, copied others on the e-mail, e-mailed numerous people, both visible to me and not visible (via blind copying -- which, I might add, makes those people anonymous to me -- interesting how that's okay when he does it) saying he knew who certain individuals were on the forum, and posted these individuals' names and computer IP addresses on his website. I repeat, this has nothing to do with my position, or Dwayne's position on the park or any other issue on which we may not see things from the same perspective. This has everything to do with an elected official going on a manhunt to flush out anonymous posters on this forum and expose them to the community because he didn't like the fact that they were criticizing him and another council person. If you think that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't need a jury and a courtroom trial to prove to me that his behavior is unethical -- some things I can figure out on my own. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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EditorPS wrote: The issue I have with Dwayne is that he gained access to confidential information from this forum's database, said he did it via a "glitch," e-mailed me and told me exactly how he did it, copied others on the e-mail, e-mailed numerous people, both visible to me and not visible (via blind copying -- which, I might add, makes those people anonymous to me -- interesting how that's okay when he does it) saying he knew who certain individuals were on the forum, and posted these individuals' names and computer IP addresses on his website. Patti, as I suggested earlier, I am actually looking forward to seeing the manifestation of this crime through an arrest and I am sure that many other readers of The Northwest Observer, not only from Summerfield, but throughout the entire Northwest area do as well. I was serious in my suggestion that I hope that you and/or 'Pappy' will keep all of us abreast of the imminent arrest of this person for this crime. I have offered and continue to offer my full support to you and to The Northwest Observer for the prosecution of any and all who commit crimes under our statutes. I have long believed and will continue to believe that no man is above the law and we as a society should be a government of laws and not men. Otherwise, my comments were more in keeping with simply having some light hearted fun which I hoped no one would take all that seriously. But please, do keep us all abreast of what can only appear from comments posted both here on this Forum and in the Northwest Observer to be an imminent arrest. Photos of the culprit being hauled away in handcuffs on your front page would just be icing on the cake. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Politics wrote: Does anyone have a link to Dwayne Crawford's website? Also, are they any links where he's exosed the IP addresses of users of this forum? Dwayne's Web site came down about two weeks ago, ironically just a few days prior to the time that we began pursuing the issue of him accessing confidential information on our site. Maybe it's just those pesty server problems again ... he is also Webmaster of the Concerned Citizens' Web site and their site has been down about two months, supposedly because of server problems (if it were me, I'd get a new server). Now Jim, don't worry -- I'm certainly not drawing any conclusions, or "hanging anyone before their fair trial" ... I'm sure the timing of his site coming down is just all coincidental. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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EditorPS wrote: I don't need a jury and a courtroom trial to prove to me that his behavior is unethical -- some things I can figure out on my own. Your comment simply reflects why I suggested that folks in Summerfield simply take Summerfield justice into their own hands and literally 'hang' him, and then have a trial later as a mere formality if necessary, to comply with those silly statutes on the books guaranteeing legal rights to criminals and all that other legal hogwash and mumbo-jumbo ya'll don't have time nor need for nor much care about. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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We are not the ones who hacked the forum and then bragged about it. I am sure he is not the only hacker in the world but most of the rest are certainly smart enough not to brag about it or at least have some idea of what the consequences are if they do brag about it especially if they also happen to be an elected official. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: We are not the ones who hacked the forum and then bragged about it. I am sure he is not the only hacker in the world but most of the rest are certainly smart enough not to brag about it or at least have some idea of what the consequences are if they do brag about it especially if they also happen to be an elected official. I am sure that everyone in the Northwest area joins me in looking forward to the imminent arrest for this crime as you all have outlined. Please keep all of us interested Northwest area citizens posted as developments occur in this imminent arrest, including the culprit being handcuffed and hauled away to Central Prison for this crime. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Your comment simply reflects why I suggested that folks in Summerfield simply take Summerfield justice into their own hands and literally 'hang' him, and then have a trial later as a mere formality if necessary, to comply with those silly statutes on the books guaranteeing legal rights to criminals and all that other legal hogwash and mumbo-jumbo ya'll don't have time nor need for nor much care about. Maybe you'd be happier if we hung some firemen. Your long-winded remarks are a little hypocritical in my opnion. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Which day this week can we expect him to be handcuffed and taken to jail Pappy? Surely them Fed boys aren't going to leave a dangerous criminal like that running loose and victimizing the public? You cain't blame this on me. I didn't vote fer him. This is serious, an' no amount o' rhetorical gymnastics can change that. Crawford stepped in his own crap, I mean trap, an' now I reckon we'll see what happens. And don't worry, we'll let ever'body know! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Maybe you'd be happier if we hung some firemen. Your long-winded remarks are a little hypocritical in my opnion. Actually, I love firemen so your comment therein doesn't make sense. Nor am I interested in hanging nor dispensing justice to anyone without that person having benefit of the American system of justice. (It is really rather archaic ain't it, to say a man is innocent until proven guilty anymore, even the ones who confess to their crimes outside of the courtroom). I guess I am just a little old fashioned in believing that even criminals deserve trials despite how slowly our justice system seems to work. The 'proof' of all of the allegations being slung around and bandied about will be in whether or not the local district attorney and/or US Attorney agrees with all of you that laws have been broken. If so, there will be an arrest and indictment, and if not, well then, I suppose someone will have some explaining to do. Time will tell and until that time, all any of us are really doing is speculating without really knowing what we are talking about (in the legal prosecution sense). It makes for a good laugh and probably some political public relations but not much else of value. Last edited on Mar 19th, 2007 02:22 am by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Which day this week can we expect him to be handcuffed and taken to jail Pappy? Surely them Fed boys aren't going to leave a dangerous criminal like that running loose and victimizing the public? You cain't blame this on me. I didn't vote fer him. This is serious, an' no amount o' rhetorical gymnastics can change that. Crawford stepped in his own crap, I mean trap, an' now I reckon we'll see what happens. And don't worry, we'll let ever'body know! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: The 'proof' of all of the allegations being slung around and bandied about will be in whether or not the local district attorney and/or US Attorney agrees with all of you that laws have been broken. If so, there will be an arrest and indictment, and if not, well then, I suppose someone will have some explaining to do. Last edited on Mar 19th, 2007 02:21 am by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Photos of the culprit being hauled away in handcuffs on your front page would just be icing on the cake. No more pictures of him anywhere or mention of him again would suit me even better. He hacked the forum, bragged about it, tried to bully citizens from legally expressing their concerns, yet somehow none of that bothers you. It bothers me. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Jim Flynt wrote:The 'proof' of all of the allegations being slung around and bandied about will be in whether or not the local district attorney and/or US Attorney agrees with all of you that laws have been broken. If so, there will be an arrest and indictment, and if not, well then, I suppose someone will have some explaining to do. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: yet somehow none of that bothers you. It bothers me. Pappy, what bothers me is that tonight over one billion children around the world will go hungry. What also bothers me is that over two billion of our world citizens are eking out an existence and getting by on less than $2.00 (yes, that's right, Two Dollars) per day. What bothers me is that 25% of the people who die in the next 24 hours around the world will die of diseases which have been eradicated in America. What bothers me is that America with all of it's great inventions and technology, still ranks behind 32 other countries in our health delivery services and in life expectancy. What bothers me is that unwise American foreign policy has led to the creation of exponential terrorist growth, especially among Muslim youth and young. What bothers me are overcrowded prisons which have become breeding grounds for even greater crimes and which do not work as a deterrent. What bothers me is that the greatest civilized society in world history does not and will not provide health care for roughly 40% of their population. And tonight all over America, Americans may well be denied medical care and treatment and die as a result of such a failed social policy. Christianity teaches me that I will ultimately be called to task to answer unto Jesus Christ, as will all of us, as to what I did do or tried to do to help some of those less fortunate as I outlined above. While I don't have to answer to you nor you to me, we will both be held accountable for our actions or failure to act in being the good Samaritan. And as humans we are sinners, none of us will be saved by our deeds, but rather only by His Grace. God created each and every human on this planet in his image, including Dwayne Crawford by the way, and if you or anyone else took the time to look long enough, you would find Jesus in Dwayne Crawford and he would find Jesus in you. And until you both can do that, you both have failed under our Lord. I suppose my vision is far greater than yours and my world a little larger than yours, or else, you too would be really bothered by those much larger things and then all of us could and would be talking about what really matters in the world, and laugh off the much ado about nothing small stuff. Those are the things that are important to me Pappy. Not Dwayne Crawford, who quite frankly doesn't even deserve one precious moment of our life or time worrying or writing about. Last edited on Mar 19th, 2007 03:33 am by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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You have GOT to be kidding me. I'm sure Jesus would be pleased how you use one billion hungry children to win some stupid argument. You make me sick. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: You have GOT to be kidding me. I'm sure Jesus would be pleased how you use one billion hungry children to win some stupid argument. You make me sick. One thing I (and others) have learned about you Pappy, is you sure can dish it out but you sure can't take it! I think Jesus would be gratified that any of us called attention to the suffering and needs of others. Including your own suffering obviously. |
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FatPappy Member
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You missed the point again by a wide mile, Jim. You've obviously got a problem, but it's not me. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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You need to go take a good long look in your mirror. Pulling out your Bible and refreshing your knowledge with a few words from Jesus might not hurt you any either. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Okay, gentlemen, enough. I'm all in favor of a healthy debate, but at this point we've got the equivalent of a verbal fist fight and it's going nowhere. Let's close the discussion on this for tonight. Good night Pappy, good night Jim, good night Cracker, good night Macca, good night Steve, good night Skiddles, good night Jane, and good night all ... |
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FatPappy Member
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My apologies to everyone for getting out of hand. That kind of discussion really doesn't do anybody any good and it takes away from the serious matters at hand. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Good Morning everyone, Thanks for the apology, Pappy. I forgot my role as moderator last evening and allowed the discussion to go so far off course that what ended up being discussed had absolutely nothing to do with the question posed on the thread. For that, I too apologize. For EVERYONE posting on this thread, or any thread on this forum, I will ask that you review the rules of the forum, keep your discussions civil and stay on topic. Personal mud slinging and jabbing, either toward each other or someone else - and that means ANYONE else, has no place here. Hope each of you has a great day. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Good morning all, I do believe participants have the right to post anonymously. In fact, I have been so bothered by the incidents involving this forum and what I believe to be trampling of the First Amendment right to free speech that I have personally filed a complaint with the ACLU of North Carolina. I would encourage others who feel the same way to do likewise. The complaint can be done online by going to http://www.acluofnorthcarolina.org and clicking on "Get Legal Help." I am not an attorney, nor do I play one. For any who read this, this is my opinion only, and I in no way am trying to find anyone guilty before they are tried. I will leave guilt or innocence up to the experts to determine. Last edited on Mar 20th, 2007 01:26 pm by S. Smith |
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Queue Member 
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I hope that ths issue gets the attention it deserves. When an elected official takes his personal grudges so far as to hack into a forum's database for the sole purpose of "outing" anonymous members, something is seriously wrong. This man was elected to serve the people of Summerfield in an ethical and legal manner. When he so grossly violates the privacy and first amendment rights of the very people who elected him, it disturbs me. I hope justice is served, in whatever way it comes, be it legal action or simply a public outcry. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Welcome to the forum Queue!!!!!
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EditorPS Administrator
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Queue wrote: I hope that ths issue gets the attention it deserves. When an elected official takes his personal grudges so far as to hack into a forum's database for the sole purpose of "outing" anonymous members, something is seriously wrong. This man was elected to serve the people of Summerfield in an ethical and legal manner. When he so grossly violates the privacy and first amendment rights of the very people who elected him, it disturbs me. I hope justice is served, in whatever way it comes, be it legal action or simply a public outcry. Hi Queue, I'm cautious in using the word "hack," simply because it hasn't been proven yet as to how Councilman Crawford accessed information from our database. According to an e-mail that he sent me on Feb. 26, a software glitch made the information available to him ... in other words, it got dropped in his lap, so to speak. I'm not sure how, or why this information was available to him and not to others, but that could just be a coincident .... or irony .... or something else entirely. I will leave that up to others to research. Not that how he got the information isn't important, but even IF it was dropped into his lap, I still contend that participants on this forum have a right to remain anonymous if they so choose, and that of all people, an elected official should not publicize their identity even if he discovers it. I also find it interesting that only those who have spoken in criticism of him were singled out. Guess it's okay to be anonymous as long as your thinking is aligned. Obviously, most of the posters on this forum have the desire to be anonymous. So the questions remains, is that a right or should it be outlawed? |
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Queue Member
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Hi Queue,  Fair enough. I call ed it that only because I'd seen others describe it as a hack, and that seemed to be the most logical explanation to me. (I can't imagine how he just happened to find anonymous members' personal, private information by "accident". Not to say it's impossible.)I feel that anonymity is a right that is given or taken by individual forums or groups. Some may make identification a requirement for membership. That's their right. But most sites online, at least that I've visited, allow total anonymity for any member who chooses it. I've even been to sites where posting your personal identity was against the rules, for safety reasons. I don't see any way that online anonymity could be forcibly restricted, other than by the people who run websites. There is no compelling reason for the government to force people posting on non-government-run websites to reveal who they are. If not a violation of the first amendment, it would at least be a highly unpopular move among the online community, and would lead to greatly decreased activity on forums like this one, I'd think. Also, even if anonymity were prohibited, who would verify that we are who we say we are? I could claim to be anyone I wanted. If I were forced to give a name for myself, who's to say that I wouldn't make one up? (Not saying I would.) Who would know? It's not practical to think that we can force people to reveal who they are. People will find ways around it. Always. If the people want anonymity, I don't think the government can stop it. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Queue wrote: Also, even if anonymity were prohibited, who would verify that we are who we say we are? I could claim to be anyone I wanted. If I were forced to give a name for myself, who's to say that I wouldn't make one up? (Not saying I would.) Who would know? It's not practical to think that we can force people to reveal who they are. People will find ways around it. Always. If the people want anonymity, I don't think the government can stop it. I think you make an excellent point here Queue. Virtually impossible to police. Someone JOKINGLY said to me to me the other day (and I won't say who
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BreBre Member
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Hahaha that would be funny Cracka! BreBre |
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mstone Member
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I've held off on responding to this discussion for a long time. I'm offended that anyone (elected or not) would hack -yep, that's the term I'll use- hack into a private computer system for any reason. I'm not smart enough to think in all those computer terms. I appears to me that what this individual did was electronic breaking and entering and theft. He took information that was not his, without permission, and used it for his own purposes. If it had been a written list in a file cabinet, and the individual had broken in to the office and cabinet to acquire the list, then it would be called breaking and entering and theft. He should be charged and the justice system should decide to what degree (if any) his activities were illegal and punishment equal to the offense should follow. Queue makes an excellent point about "outing" folks. There are countless people that do not want personal areas of their life known to the general public, or to specific individuals. That's their right. Membership in certain organizations, alternative lifestyles, association with groups or individuals, political and religious choices, or even family relations are all private matters sacred to some. There's nothing that says that a person must be an open book. We all have skeletons in closets. Who has the right to decide what information is "out there" about an individual except for that person alone. Who is Dwayne Crawford that he believes that he has a right to poke around and steal this information? |
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GRITS Member
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After all that DC has done--has he been blocked from your web site? He does not deserve granted permission "only" to intentionally harasse the NW community primarily for personal gain. But, I ask--what does he have to gain other than self-humiliation? Or does the public want him to actually read what the real people of the community have to say about this non-trust worthy town elected official? |
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bama80 Member
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I believe the posters and admins actually encouraged him to be on here. He cannot be blocked from viewing. I assume he can be blocked from posting by blocking an email but that is not the goal of this site. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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mstone wrote: He should be charged and the justice system should decide to what degree (if any) his activities were illegal and punishment equal to the offense should follow. Yep, there's that 'Summerfield justice' thing for you again: Indict 'em, charge 'em, hang 'em and then find out if they are/were guilty of a crime later if a trial is warranted. Sorta kinda like they do things in Iraq. BTW, it is going on one week now, and I am more than a little curious why Patti and Pappy haven't given us the low down on why this alleged arch-criminal hasn't been indicted, arrested, handcuffed, mug-shot, taken off the streets to protect innocent people and had his photo printed all over the front pages of the media? Unless of course, they were wrong, which obviously could not be the case. Right? |
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Queue Member
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Yep, there's that 'Summerfield justice' thing for you again: Indict 'em, charge 'em, hang 'em and then find out if they are/were guilty of a crime later if a trial is warranted. Sorta kinda like they do things in Iraq. "Indict 'em, charge 'em, hang 'em and then find out if they are/were guilty" doesn't apply. We believe a crime may have been committed, and want the proper legal authorities to take any action that is warranted. If they decide that no action is warranted, we'll have to accept that. But it's not wrong to want justice served. If justice dictates that he is innocent, that will stand. But he may be guilty. That's an option we can consider, while evaluating all the facts. |
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Steve Adkins Member
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GRITS wrote: After all that DC has done--has he been blocked from your web site? No he has not been blocked. In fact, I have personally invited him to join us on numerous occasions, and he has declined. |
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Steve Adkins Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: BTW, it is going on one week now, and I am more than a little curious why Patti and Pappy haven't given us the low down........... Forum policies state "flame ideas, not people" Let's get back on the subject, and get back to flaming ideas. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 05:25 am by Steve Adkins |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Steve Adkins wrote: Jim Flynt wrote:BTW, it is going on one week now, and I am more than a little curious why Patti and Pappy haven't given us the low down........... Steve, my post wasn't meant as a flame of people or ideas. Like many others, I simply wanted an update from those who seem to be leading the charge for criminal prosecution and wanted to know when we could all expect to hear news of an indictment and arrest in this matter, as has been suggested might happen. Nothing more intended. It is just that this is such big news in the Northwest that almost everyone out here who has been following all the media hype and front page headlines in The Northwest Observer is waiting anxiously with baited breath to see how this all comes down and plays out. |
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Steve Adkins Member
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wanted to know when we could all expect to hear news of an indictment and arrest in this matter, as has been suggested might happen. There has been no suggestion of indictment & arrest by anyone other than you Jim, and the subject has gone on far enough. The specific comment made at the TC meeting by Patti was she would pursue every avenue, and IF anything legal had been violated, then the legal side would be pursued either. It's a little unfair to ask when an arrest is going to occur, when it is not known. Patti is a good professional journalist, she will advise us appropriately how things "come down & play out". |
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mstone Member
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Hold on a minute, Jim. I think maybe you misunderstood my comment. As you copied - I stated the justice system should decide this matter. However, folks end up in the justice system only after they are charged with an offense. They are still innocent until proven guilty. A person charged with running a stoplight or robbing a bank is still innocent until they get through the justice system. There are lots of folks proven innocent in a court of law that were charged with offenses. There are lots of people in jail that were charged and found guilty. My point was that if the NWO believes what he did was wrong, he should be charged. If the NWO decides that he didn't do anything wrong or chooses not to pursue it - fine. Just say so. That's the only two ways to get this process moving forward towards a resolution. Jim Flynt wrote: mstone wrote:He should be charged and the justice system should decide to what degree (if any) his activities were illegal and punishment equal to the offense should follow. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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To carry your thought a little farther mstone, I think there are things that are immoral and unethical that are not necessarily illegal. So the discussion of an elected official who admits to hacking a website to gain identities may or maynot be illegal but it certainly is unethical. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: To carry your thought a little farther mstone, I think there are things that are immoral and unethical that are not necessarily illegal. Jane: Given your statement, could you please provide us all with 3 examples of things which you would consider to be immoral and unethical, but yet, which are considered legal? |
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mstone Member
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Jim, What a powerful question - sincerely. When I read your post I thought, "I can pop these out in no time." After much thought, it's not that easy. Plus, knowing you have more active brain cells than me, I knew that this was some sort of test. Anyway, after pondering this question, let me see if my thoughts are anywhere close to correct. In the category of immoral and/or unethical
How'd I do? Jim Flynt wrote: DOGGETTJA wrote:To carry your thought a little farther mstone, I think there are things that are immoral and unethical that are not necessarily illegal. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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mstone wrote: Jim, Mike, actually I didn't post the question as a trick question, but I did believe that Jane had made a statement which might be difficult if not almost impossible to answer clearly. In fact, I still look forward to her response in defense of her statement in the plural (when she used the terms "things"). I actually agree that it is not an easy question to answer. Like you, though, I believe and have always believed that if a fellow simply abided by the Ten Commandments, he should pretty much be free of any further culpability in sins, immoralities and ethical lapses. The Golden Rule comes to mind as yet another useful guide in conducting one's affairs as well. Mike, I not only think, but know from our previous prior private chats, that we both have great appreciation for a man's adherence to God's laws and commands. And for that, My Friend, you have my greatest respect and admiration. Perhaps others will wade in and share their thoughts and comments as well. Last edited on Mar 23rd, 2007 02:33 pm by Jim Flynt |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Great conversation gentlemen, but the question on this topic is, "Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously? Please stay on topic. |
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mstone Member
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Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously? Yes. Not eloquent, but succinct. EditorPS wrote: Great conversation gentlemen, but the question on this topic is, "Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously? |
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jimia Member
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I am interested in knowing have any laws been broken and does the NWO have any civil action options? Is an investigation been initiated. I read a letter in the NWO that articulated things really nicely. Dwayne and Becky are not qualified to be on the Town Council and we the citizens should not have to wait for them to step down. What are our options in getting these two undesirables off the TC? Maybe we should start a partition and produce triple the signatures that got these bozo's elected in the first place. |
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bama80 Member
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as far as and laws being broken, I think patti has stated several times that at this time, they are looking into their options and pursuing whatver route they are able to. It is not wise for her to discuss it with anyone especially on a public internet message board. I am sure the nwo will disclose any updates when they have it and when they can give it. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Jimia, An investigation is underway. That's all I can say at this time. As for removing town council members, we will let you know what options there are for that as soon as we get a final answer. |
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mstone Member
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Good point bama80. Since the NWO is in a position of providing a forum and being part of one of the hot news stories, they are in a precarious position. I wouldn't expect them to expose themselves or their position without carefully considering the consequences. I'm fine with waiting this one out. In the meantime, I'm not oppsed to continuing the spirited discussion about anonymous postings, privacy, and the like. I think the contention on this forum has been more about what we as individuals think happened based on the available information and discussions. I would hope (and I believe this to be true) that everyone wants a fair and positive resolution to this issue. IF (big IF, because we don't know) laws have been broken, then there are actions that can/will be taken. Perhaps we're getting wrapped around the axle because folks believe that public trust has been broken - without knowing whether public laws have been broken. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Thank you mstone. You described all issues very well, and I loved your closing sentence. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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mstone wrote: Since the NWO is in a position of providing a forum and being part of one of the hot news stories, they are in a precarious position. Interestingly enough, The NWO's role in our community has now changed from reporting the news to driving the news if not becoming the news. That seems to be the consensus from over this way. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: DOGGETTJA wrote: To carry your thought a little farther mstone, I think there are things that are immoral and unethical that are not necessarily illegal.
Patti Stokes wrote: Great conversation gentlemen, but the question on this topic is, "Do forum participants have the right to post anonymously? Patti, it seems to me that when other posters make statements under their posts under any one topic, responders should be allowed to challenge the veracity of such statements. It further seems to me that there are a lot of statements which are thrown out on this NWO Forum which have little regard for fact, are highly disputable in accuracy, and many are completely without foundation or logical support. It seems only fair that anyone should be allowed to challenge those statements however benign or reckless they may be, as they might well mislead weaker or lazier minds not prone to research and confirmation or denial. Therefore, I think if you will review more closely, the posts made by Mike and I, they are in keeping with the earlier concept espoused by Jane Doggett as to whether an act can be legal yet immoral or unethical, as she contends. If after a review you still feel that our comments were off topic, would you be so kind as to move them to a new topic thread where we can discuss in greater detail the very interesting question which is at the essence of some of the public charges which have been leveled at one of the Northwest area town council members. Thank-you in advance for your reconsideration and your consideration of this request. Last edited on Mar 23rd, 2007 05:17 pm by Jim Flynt |
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jimia Member
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My question is even if you cannot press charges against him can you initiate a civil suit based on the potential damages he has done to the forum and newspaper. He has raised questions around the security and privacy of accessing the NWO online. That cannot be good for the paper. |
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