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Sawdust Member
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I have been following the "Concerned Citizens" for some time in amazement. I have witnessed them in action at council meetings as well as read about their recent requests under the "Freedom of Information" act. It seems to me they are not as "concerned" about Summerfield as they claim. They appear to be disruptive in meetings. They also seem to waste much of the councils time. Case in point - a bumper sticker. It appears hypocritical of them to want the "Freedoms"...speech, information etc. they ask for - even demand at times and at the same time want others to limit their freedoms. How much time has Michael Brandt and the lawyers spent compiling all of the information requested by Ms. Dunham? I feel strongly Mr. Brandt's time should be used more wisely than having to compile 280 pages of information that will most likely never be read or understood entirely by Ms. Dunham. I suggest a quiz at the next council meeting and if she can not answer questions from the documents then she is limited to only a few pages a week of information. Certainly I am joking about that, but I believe her focus is disruptive. They claim to want lower taxes, as we all do, but they are willing to waste time with their accusations and requests. I am sure Ms. Strickland and Mr. Crawford are able to contribute positively to our town but their tactics are questionable. It is quite refreshing to see a group step up and work with the council positively. Already they are much more focused on the larger issues and encouraging change within the town. I believe the next election will show who truly is concerned about Summerfield and Ms. Strickland and Mr. Crawford will be sitting next to their mouthpiece - facing the council instead of the people they are supposedly "concerned" about. I believe it is our "Freedom" and responsibility to question our leaders and hold them accountable, however, not to a point that is disruptive and impedes progress. |
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FatPappy Member 
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Oh, yeah! Welcome Sawdust! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Sawdust wrote: I believe the next election will show who truly is concerned about Summerfield and Ms. Strickland and Mr. Crawford will be sitting next to their mouthpiece - facing the council instead of the people they are supposedly "concerned" about. Have you already forgotten the positive votes FOR the people of Summerfield that Strickland and Crawford along with Carolyn Collins cast on the last Armfield rezoning? It was these three town council members, it seems to me, who placed the best interests of the town and the citizens over the demands of developers and real estate interests. |
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Isabella Member 
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Jim- Can you actually give ANY examples of positive behavior by any of the CCs? They are an embarressment to Summerfield and the only thing that appears to motivate them is their own narcissism. I refuse to bring my younger children to Council meetings because of the behavior exhibited by this group. Maybe at the next CC meeting you could suggest an etiquette class. I'm not sure anyone would disagree with lower taxes and open government. But the CC have made a mockery of the principles behind the original incorporation, and they continue to make a mockery of Summerfield. Go out into Greensboro and tell people you live in Summerfield (ooops-forgot you don't) and see what the general reaction is...usually something like "it is so beautiful out there", followed by "what is goin' on out there with those people" |
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FatPappy Member
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How can any rational person look at the situation in Summerfield without some measure of disgust for Crawford, Strickland and Dunham's actions? How can one vote, cast fer who knows what reason, erase the deceit, the abuse, the disruption these people are responsible for? I'm not talkin' about what they say they've for, I'm talkin' about what they've shown time and again they're really for. Themselves. |
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Isabella Member
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Rock On Pappy!!! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Isabella wrote: Maybe at the next CC meeting you could suggest an etiquette class. For the record: As you point out correctly Isabella, I am not nor have I ever been a resident of Summerfield. (Although I did attend elementary school there for 5 years and had and have other Summerfield connections, yet I do share your larger concerns and care for the community's future). I am not nor have I ever been a member, associate, agent, contributor, donor, conspirator, advisor, counselor, supporter, or patron of the Concerned Citizens, and can assure you that I never will be. While I am not a resident of Summerfield, l am a resident of the Northwest (Stokesdale) and also a frequent visitor (and long time former resident) of Greenboro. From my contemporaneous conversations on an ongoing basis with a large cross section of Greensboro residents, I doubt a majority of Greensboro residents even know where Summerfield (or Stokesdale either for that matter) is, much less know, or care, to keep up with our local government actions in the NW communities. I think your fears are greatly exaggerated to any real concern that Greensburghers might know or care more about our civic problems than the more pressing and embarassing ones they face in their own community. I am a strong advocate for representational diversity and that includes diversity of opinions and differing political viewpoints, and I do agree that the rude and childish and amateur words and actions do and will indeed diminish the very possibilities of the Concerned Citizens bringing to the table and presenting other viewpoints which could be helpful if not vital to the maintenance of democratic government in the larger community. I further agree, by their very churlish actions, they squander both voice, viewpoint and opportunity in sacrifice for the far lesser prize of egoistic comedic theatre. And that is a shame, for them and for all. Last edited on Feb 24th, 2007 03:49 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Isabella wrote:Rock On Pappy!!! Right back atcha, Isabella! |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Sawdust wrote: I believe the next election will show who truly is concerned about Summerfield and Ms. Strickland and Mr. Crawford will be sitting next to their mouthpiece - facing the council instead of the people they are supposedly "concerned" about. Hi Sawdust, and welcome to the forum. I just wanted to point out here that Summerfield council members are now elected for 4-year terms which are staggered. Since Dwayne Crawford and Becky Strickland were just elected in November 2005, they won't be up for election for a couple more years. |
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Cracker Jax Member 
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Yes Sandra... we can't do anything until November '09 (and I'm sure hoping that people do opt for a change....) and then they're still sitting council members until January 2010. That's a depressing thought. By my calculations, that's 1051 days, 22 hours, 14 minutes and too many seconds... |
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LottieDottie Member 
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I'm still unclear as to why the Town Council does not appoint/nominate a Sargent of Arms to handle disruptive behavior at the meetings. Lottie Dottie |
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Steve Adkins Member 
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Sawdust wrote: It is quite refreshing to see a group step up and work with the council positively. Already they are much more focused on the larger issues and encouraging change within the town. Thank You Sawdust for the positive comment on the Friends For Summerfield. You are extended an invitation to join us, if you haven't already, and enjoy the benefits of a group that truly has Summerfields best interest in mind. See website on my signature line below. And you're right, FFS is focused on the big picture. |
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Hairbrush Member
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Jim, are saying one vote on one zoning makes Strickland and Crawford a friend of Summerfield and makes Barnes and Williams not friends of Summerfield? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush wrote: Jim, are saying one vote on one zoning makes Strickland and Crawford a friend of Summerfield and makes Barnes and Williams not friends of Summerfield? Hairbrush, I think if you go back and reread my post, you will find that I did not say that which you imply. What I did say and repeat for clarity, is that on the Armfield vote, Crawford, Strickland and Collins were on the side of the Summerfield community and Summerfield citizens rather than the side of developers and real estate interests. If you wish to conclude that the other two council members are or were on the side of developers and real estate interests, based on the Armfield vote, that is certainly your prerogative. I can clearly see how one could reach that conclusion based on the Armfield vote. I don't think that the Armfield rezoning and Armfield vote was any small matter nor was it an inconsequential land use decision. To me at least, this was a signal case with far reaching consequences which go well beyond this one rather large property. I am doubtful, that the Summerfield Town Council has ever dealt with a land use matter of greater significance nor one of greater impact to citizens, therefore, the individual votes of elected officials send signals of great import to citizens of which 'side' of the development equation an official is likely to fall: for the community at large or for the real estate and development interests. There are both locally as well as nationally, many citizens and voters who are solely motivated on and by single issue politics and political decisions. Whether that be land use policies, taxes, education, capital punishment, the Iraq war, abortion, gay marriage, or any number of myriad other issues. For those voters, a single vote on a single issue may well be their sole motivation to vote FOR or to vote AGAINST an elected leader in the next election cycle. I am not unmindful of that historical pattern of voter behavior, and am not reluctant to believe that it will continue into the future. For me at least, land use policies and decisions are extremely and vitally important, and I daresay, they would constitute for me, the number one issue in determination of how and for whom I vote come election day. I could and would overlook other voting decisions or decisional judgments on other issues of little or no importance to me by an elected official, so long as I felt that official maintained a similar viewpoint to my own in their approach to examining and voting on land use matters. Surely, there are those other voters opposed to uncontrolled growth and unbridled sprawl who would feel the same and would exhibit the same voting priority and pattern such as my own. Last edited on Feb 26th, 2007 04:22 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Hairbrush Member
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Jim, thank you for your explanation. I too have core values that will always determine for whom I vote. I happened to think that in this case all the council members did look at the land use ordinances and they came to different conclusion, so maybe that means that the Town of Summerfield needs to re-visit some of these ordinances. I also don't happen to think just because you voted on my side of the fence makes you the right person for the job. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush, Thank you as well for your comments and while we may disagree on our conclusions, I do respect your thinking. And that you have given and continue to give this topic great thought. Interestingly, I was in Raleigh on Saturday with some old UNC friends (most of whom were Raleigh area natives) who live within the inner loop, and during the course of the afternoon, we were all discussing the tremendous growth and growth patterns of the Raleigh area within the last 10 to 20 years (remember when Raleigh was once a small town?). Someone pointed out that Cary (a Raleigh suburb) is now laughingly referred to and regarded by the old timers as the 'Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.' You can even say fairly that the old time Raleigh residents look down their noses on Cary and Cary residents for that reason. (As a side note, the greatest real estate appreciation in the Raleigh market is taking place inside the inner loop and not in Cary, which is reflective of the components of the old adage, location, location, location). When I described to the group some of what was happening with the explosive growth in the Northwest, someone suggested that we ought to hire a bus and start giving the old time Northwest locals and local government officials bus tours up to Union, Essex and Bergen counties in New Jersey so that they can see what this area is going to look and be like in 10 to 20 years. The Northern Virginia suburbs with all of their problems of traffic, congestion and over crowded schools wouldn't be a bad place to show the locals either as a model of what is to come. As Pogo used to say, I have looked into the future and seen the enemy and he is us. While their remark was a humorous insight, there is unfortunately a great deal of truth in the comment, and one which even more unfortunately, the locals will fail to heed in rolling over to developer demands in continuation of the uncontrolled growth and unbridled sprawl of the past few years. So, if you don't like the looks and feel of Cary, just imagine how much Northwest area residents aren't going to like being in the new Northern New Jersey we are so very rapidly creating down here all around us. To my way of thinking, it really is only a matter of time before none of us recognize the value of what we have and had, and then one day down the road wonder how it was we disemboweled our communities. And for what? And to me at least, that is a crying shame. So who wants to hop on the bus? And where is it you want to go? Northern Virginia, Northern New Jersey or Long Island? Let's face it: Summerfield can never build parks as fast as developers unbridled can build houses. Last edited on Feb 27th, 2007 11:04 am by Jim Flynt |
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Hairbrush Member
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I totally agree that Summerfield needs controlled growth. My husband grew up in Dallas so enough said about urban sprawl. I too lived in Raleigh for many years and had a house inside the inner belt loop. When I bought that house I could only afford it because it was in a transitional neighbor. I had no problems selling it when I left because as we know you can't make more land. I hope that the comprehensive plan that Summerfield is having done will look at Urban Sprawl. I would love to see the Town Core area stay a viable part of Summerfield and I think in order to that we have to control the sprawl. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush wrote: I totally agree that Summerfield needs controlled growth. My husband grew up in Dallas so enough said about urban sprawl. I too lived in Raleigh for many years and had a house inside the inner belt loop. When I bought that house I could only afford it because it was in a transitional neighbor. I had no problems selling it when I left because as we know you can't make more land. Hairbrush, we agree totally. I was thinking that you had lived in Raleigh and that is why I used the Cary example (as well as my inner loop comment) in my earlier response, knowing you would understand and appeciate the larger point I was trying to make. |
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Shamu Member
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 I am wondering how you can say that the "Friends..." has the best interests of Summerfield in mind. Summerfiled is not an animate thing with interests (ie. an individual). that you would know what its best interests are. What you really know is the best interests of you. I think what you are saying is that you, and some small group of other like-minded people (30 in 8000 ain't much), have the best interests of Summerfield in mind. I doubt it. Maybe you should read the survey we paid $12K or $15K for last year and then explain to me how you know what the best interests of Summerfield are. Ballparks?? Show me in the survey. Increased authority for Town Manager??? |
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FatPappy Member
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Welcome to the forum, Shamu. Which survey are we talkin' about here? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush wrote: I too have core values that will always determine for whom I vote. I also don't happen to think just because you voted on my side of the fence makes you the right person for the job. If an elected official votes on my side of the fence and votes in support of my core values, not only is that the right person for the job, as far as I am concerned, that is the ONLY person for the job. I rather suspect that most folks (excepting small cliques with self serving interests) would generally agree and vote in a similar manner. The good news is we will find out in the next election. Those who give voice to the truth and dissent will never be silenced and will always be heard, if only at the ballot box. Rock on Shamu. I, for one, want to hear what you have to say. And I'm sure there are others 'out there' who do as well. Rock On Shamu. Rock On! Last edited on Feb 27th, 2007 02:10 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Shamu Member
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The 'Parks and Recreation' Sellers survey done last year on Town website - report dated March 7, 2006. |
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FatPappy Member
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The majority (61.4 percent) of the survey respondents “agree” or “strongly agree” that the Town of Summerfield needs to provide quality recreation and parks opportunities for its residents. Approximately 63 percent of the survey respondents “agree” or “strongly agree” that the Town of Summerfield needs to provide mostly active outdoor recreation opportunities (e.g., running trails, playgrounds, athletic fields, etc.). More than 58 percent of the survey respondents “agree” or “strongly agree” that the Town of Summerfield needs to provide passive outdoor recreation opportunities (e.g., walking for pleasure, picnicking, bird watching, etc.). Over 57 percent of survey respondents “agree” or “strongly agree” that the Town of Summerfield needs to provide a combination of passive and active outdoor recreation opportunities. There's more, but that looks to me like people want ball fields an' such. Is that not how you see it, Shamu? Or am I missin' your point? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Shamu wrote: The 'Parks and Recreation' Sellers survey done last year on Town website - report dated March 7, 2006. Shamu, wasn't that the survey that said that most folks in Summerfield were dancing in the streets wanting to pay more TAXES? Or is there another survey that says that? |
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StewartM Member 
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Jim Flynt wrote: Shamu wrote:Using a little of the $8 mil in the bank from the taxes that we have already paid and some grant money, we could complete some of these projects.....Why do you tax me just to have a millions in the bank and not service the Town's needs......The 'Parks and Recreation' Sellers survey done last year on Town website - report dated March 7, 2006. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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StewartM wrote: Why do you tax me just to have a millions in the bank and not service the Town's needs...... Personally, I think the question ought to be: why impose taxes at all? Folks are paying enough taxes as it is and surely Summerfield could get by without the imposition of any tax if they would simply tighten their belt and let go of some of the pie in the sky dreams of a few. I read the survey with the comments from folks, and was especially touched and pained from reading some of the senior citizen pleas for relief from the pain of having to pay out that which they don't have. It serves to force some people to make unpleasant choices of having to decide which of life's neccesities such as food, medical care, or prescription drugs they must give up in exchange for luxury items selfishly desired by the few. It may well even serve to force some long time residents to sell their homes to provide parks and recreation for the super rich buying those gazillion dollar homes that are moving in and turning what was once a nice pastoral rural community into another New Jersey lookalike. Frankly, that ain't Summerfield. Or at least the one I used to know. My guess is that the larger majority of citizens/voters will ultimately prove my theory correct over there and the tax imposition will be relieved. I hope so and fully support the efforts of all those who endorse that end. While I am at times critical of some of the decisions which the Stokesdale Town Council has made, they have been excellent stewards of the town's revenues and I dare say, they have done an excellent job in protecting and enriching the town's assets including a town water system, major contributions to the fire department, school and existing park, a current park acquisition and future development, and unlike Summerfield, by keeping a tight belt, they have been able to do all of this without imposing any taxes on our citizens. I am sure the TC members here know that if they ever did impose a tax, they would be thrown out by voters on their ears and burned in effigy. Summerfield has yet to learn that lesson but probably will to no one's surprise but the few. Quite frankly, I have never been a fan or advocate of Tax and $pend - $pend and Tax and I never will. And my political support will always be for those who endorse that position. I am a single issue voter when it comes to tax policy and historical polling data strongly suggests many others vote like me in that regard. As Tip O'Neill used to say: All politics is local and people vote with their wallets. Last edited on Feb 28th, 2007 12:04 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Hairbrush Member
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Isn't it true that in order for us to get some of the sales tax we have to also charging a tax? |
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StewartM Member
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Yes its true |
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FatPappy Member
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61.4 percent, 63 percent, 58 percent, 57 percent... not exactly "the few". I agree those on fixed incomes or experiencin' other hardships should have tax relief. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: 61.4 percent, 63 percent, 58 percent, 57 percent... not exactly "the few". Pappy, just to make sure that I am reading the very same survey as you are quoting those figures from, can you please refresh exactly which survey it is we are discussing. I did read the survey which described some majority numbers desiring parks and recreation, but that same survey also indicated a lack of willingness and desire by citizens to pay for those things with taxes or tax increases. I just want to make sure I am looking at the same raw data as you are, before I make the case for the other side. Thank-you for your consideration of this request. |
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FatPappy Member
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We're still talkin' about "The 'Parks and Recreation' Sellers survey done last year on Town website - report dated March 7, 2006." I'm gonna sit over here in the shade an' give my raw data a little break. You say whatever you need to an' I'll try an' jump back in when I'm rested. |
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DOGGETTJA Member 
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There, to my knowledge, has never been any discussion of a tax increase for parks or ball fields. The first half of the park was built with 50% PartF grant money and 50% general fund money from our share of the sales tax money. The Town is also waiting for the second part of the park for grant money. The ballfield money has been set aside from the general fund to buy the land also a majority of which is from Summerfield's share of sales tax money. The survey being referred to is on the web site for Summerfield done by Dr. Sellars. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: I'm gonna sit over here in the shade an' give my raw data a little break. You say whatever you need to an' I'll try an' jump back in when I'm rested. Pappy Thanks. I might even be tempted to sit over in the shade with you and we can spit and whittle for a while. We're both the better when we have someone arguing the other side as the devil's advocate and I don't think I have to tell you that Mama was right when she said I would argue with the Devil (and that was NOT a reference to you by the way). Mama also used to say that I would probably vote for Lucifer himself if he was a Democrat, but I always advised her, never in the primary. Now if Ol' Mephostophilis is running against one of them Republicans, then that is an entirely different story. When I get the chance to more fully look back at that survey, then I'll be back and we can toss around some banter back and forth in good natured pursuit of perhaps both discovering some middle ground and maybe even a couple of new ideas. I do love parks. I just hate taxes. And my love for one has never overcome my hatred for the other. Last edited on Feb 28th, 2007 03:49 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Much obliged fer that good info, Jane. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Shamu wrote: Shamu, Thanks for joining the forum and being willing to debate issues with others on here. Everyone may not agree, but our hope is that people can discuss things openly here, give supporting arguments and differing viewpoints, and maybe at least show others that there's always another side to consider. |
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Baseball Buddy Member 
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S. Smith wrote: Shamu wrote:Ballfields fall under active recreation. Also when did Summerfield hire a Town Manager to give more power to? I recall all we have is an Administrator that has no power at all to make a decision to buy anything more than copy paper to print FOIA requests on.Shamu, Thanks for joining the forum and being willing to debate issues with others on here. Everyone may not agree, but our hope is that people can discuss things openly here, give supporting arguments and differing viewpoints, and maybe at least show others that there's always another side to consider. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Baseball Buddy wrote: S. Smith wrote:Shamu wrote:Ballfields fall under active recreation. Also when did Summerfield hire a Town Manager to give more power to? I recall all we have is an Administrator that has no power at all to make a decision to buy anything more than copy paper to print FOIA requests on.Shamu, Thanks for joining the forum and being willing to debate issues with others on here. Everyone may not agree, but our hope is that people can discuss things openly here, give supporting arguments and differing viewpoints, and maybe at least show others that there's always another side to consider. Buddy, I believe Shamu is asking a question about the town manager, not saying it had already been done. Shamu, we've got another thread to discuss that issue called System of Government Change. I hope you'll visit there and post your comments on that subject. |
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FatPappy Member
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whoops Last edited on Mar 2nd, 2007 04:42 pm by FatPappy |
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macca Member 
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Last edited on Mar 5th, 2007 08:54 am by |
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Shamu Member
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Funny, I could of sworn there had been a comment from macca regarding Baseball Buddy's assertion that the Town Administrator could only afford to buy paper for FOIA requests. Something about $5000 discretionary budget. Hmmmm. Wonder what happened to that comment? |
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macca Member
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I made no such comment. |
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Shamu Member
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OHHH, My Bad!! Usually us killer whales have very good memories. What is the discretionary spending limit of the Town Administrator anyway? Anybody know? |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Don't know the exact amount Shamu. (edited by S. Smith) I would suppose you could find that info on the town's website. http://www.summerfield-nc.com/ The budget is probably posted there. Last edited on Mar 11th, 2007 01:39 pm by |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I believe the Town Administrator has a $500 limit for his discretionary spending. He was given a $5,000 limit when it came to phase 1 of the park but only for the park. he really can't buy much more than copy paper most of the time. |
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FatPappy Member
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Here's a real eye opener if yer coffee ain't doin the trick this mornin'. http://homepage.mac.com/fatpappy/strickland-dunham/FileSharing7.html Click on that link up yonder to go to Pappy's Loadin' Dock. You'll see one o' them public documents PDFs you can downlaod an' see fer yerse'f what I'm a-talkin' 'bout. It seems Ms-Concerned Citizens Strickland slash Dunham have decided nuthin' matters but their own agenda. Despite a 3-2 vote by the council to proceed with the grant request to complete phase 2 of the park, these two individuals, apparently without knowledge of the majority o' the council, decided it was up to them to ignore a legal vote by our elected officials an' take matters in their own hands to try an' sabotage the grant process. |
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macca Member
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Wow! It's hard to believe anyone would deliberately tell a funding source to deny their own town money to help improve the quality of life there. What can Summerfield residents do to minimize the damage of these letters? |
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FatPappy Member
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macca wrote:What can Summerfield residents do to minimize the damage of these letters? Write the council, the NWO, the Guilferd Recerd, all yer friends an' fambly...tell 'em what a outrage it is that two individuals who represent nobody but themselves have the audacity to try an' tell a whole town what to do. If there is such a groundswell o' opposition to the park as they claim, then where is it? Why haven't we seen it? If some people don't want a park fer whatever reason, that's fine. Tryin' to subvert the legal actions o' duly elected officials ain't all right. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I hope that there will be a lot of people coming to the Town Council meeting Tuesday night to say democracy is important. We do not want to be represented by some other form of government that takes alway the majorities rights. We want the Concerned Citizens to explain to us how sabotaging the half a million dollar grant, yes that is right 1/2 a million dollars, which the Town spent $20,000 holding meetings and getting the grant written, is saving us money. To explain to us how their platform of open responsible government which they ran on is carried out in this letter from Ms Strickland representing herself as a council of member sent with out the knowledge of at least 4 other council members. Why this letter is not enough of an offense to demand the resignation of Ms Strickland for blantant abuse of power of her position. She is representing only herself not the wishes of the 800 people who came to the park opening, not the parents of the 900 kids who are playing on the "outdated and inadequate" ball fields. Ms Strickland has an agenda and it does not matter what the majority of Summerfield might want. Come Tuesday night to Town Council and speak out against this abuse of power. That's what folks can do Macca. |
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FatPappy Member
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Well said, Jane. Pappy heerd one feller say he thought Strickland's official lookin' letter (she stapled her council bidness card to the upper left corner to make a "letterhead"), I say, her official lookin' letter gave Dunham's seven page rant the appearance o' legitimacy. I reckon it works t'other way. Dunham's seven page rant would drag down a papal bull. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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As an outsider, it seems to me, that the arguments of both sides really aren't at all about parks, but about each side arguing they have a majority of support for their position or goal. I am not unmindful that for one side, the larger issue isn't about parks at all, but about whether or not the Town of Summerfield should (have) imposed a property tax to increase revenues. It seems that the really fair resolution for everyone, would simply be to place the whole concept of whether or not the Town of Summerfield should have parks on the ballot and let the voters decide. Then everyone could find out at last whether or not they truly represent a majority of Summerfield residents' viewpoints. And at the same time, why not place on the ballot for Summerfield residents to decide, whether or not to continue to impose a property tax on its' residents. Why in the world would either side be reluctant at all to let the voters decide these two issues if they truly believe in the rightness of their positiion and the strength of their support? As a Disclaimer: I don't have a dog in this fight nor do I own property in Summerfield. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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So Jim to carry your argument a bit further we will just do away with our elected officials and put every issue on a ballot and hold a vote. I thought that was the reason we had elected representatives . The majority won and then that carried on to the vote of council. Not each citizen having to vote on everything. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Like I said earlier Jane, I wonder what either side would fear in sharing these two major decisions with the real owners of government, the people? If your side has the support of a majority and you're convinced of the rightness of your position, then I am surprised that you wouldn't you be leading the charge for letting the people decide and finally and fairly settle these much larger issues once and for all in a democratic manner? Citizen initiatives at the ballot box are not unknown phenomena under the American democratic system and have been used quite frequently in almost every part of the United States. So my question to you is: what is your fear? |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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There is an election held every two years that allow the people to express their opinions by voting for their representatives. There is an election coming this November. I believe in the form of democracy that we practice in Summerfield which consists of voting for council members every two years. I do not think that putting every issue that there is not total agreement on to a vote is what people expect. We as a population doesn't vote now. I have certainly had many years when I was represented by people who did not have my values but I also realized this was the way our form of governemnt worked and worked harder in the next election to change things. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Sounds like you have some real fears of what the voters might actually say on these two issues Jane! |
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Skiddles Member 
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This is unconscionable! It appears that her actions were in total disregard and against the principles of our government, plus what she allegedly stands for. She has shown us her self-serving true colors. It seems her letter shows us she will get her way without concern for the citizens she is suppose to represent. She should stop working against everyone, realize that our system works by the majority or it doesn't work at all or she should resign! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Skiddles wrote: She should stop working against everyone, realize that our system works by the majority or it doesn't work My goodness Skiddles, that is the very same argument that a majority of Americans and the Democrats in Congress in Washington are trying to get President Bush to understand about the war in Iraq. If only he would listen........or, resign as you say. |
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FatPappy Member
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Gettin' back to war in Summerfield, the real issue here is whether ever' time 2 or 3 people claim the sky is not blue, despite overwhelmin' evidence to the contrary, that ever'thang should come to a halt. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Gettin' back to war in Summerfield, the real issue here is whether ever' time 2 or 3 people claim the sky is not blue, despite overwhelmin' evidence to the contrary, that ever'thang should come to a halt. Gosh Pappy, why not let the Summerfield voters decide once and for all on these two issues (parks and taxes), and then show them other varmints (all 2 or 3 of them as you say) you got the majority of voters behind your ideas? Or do you? |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Jim I am stating an opinion as are you. I find your adjetives to be very discussion stopping and judgemental. I will first off say there is very little in this life I am afraid of probably stupidly so but that is the truth so I am not sure why or how you would come to the conclusion that is my reason for my opinion. Just as the use of the word coward how do you know that is the reason people don't want to use their names on the forum. I will be glad to debate with you all though I will certainly concede you are by far have the superior knowledge but I will ask you to leave out the judements on my character. |
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SaltyDog Member 
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So Jim - everytime there is a split vote on the council those in the minority could and should call for and be granted a referendum? If those on the minority side want a referendum couldn't they muster up enough names on a petition to make it happen? |
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Vicki White-Lawrence Member 
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In researching articles for the Northwest Observer, I've talked with people in the local and state Board of Elections offices. They certainly do not recommend putting everything before the voters. As has been said, we have a representative form of government. In addition to making the process very slow, it is expensive to hold a referendum, especially if there is not a major election to draw people out to the polls. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: I will ask you to leave out the judements on my character. Jane, my comments had absolutely nothing to do with your character. My point iis and was, that I simply think you are afraid to let the voters of Summerfield decide these two very important issues, for the simple reason you fear their decision. As I pointed out earlier, letting the voters decide would put to rest forever and eternally this silly debate going on in Summerfield where neither side is winning, and again as I pointed out, if you truly believe in both the rightness of your cause and the strength of your support, you should be leading the charge for letting the voters decide rather than running for cover with specious arguments. As Robert Kennedy once said: Some men see things as they are and say why. Others see things as they never were and ask why not. Why aren't you and others on your side asking the question: Why not let the voters decide? What is your side's fear? The only cowards in this debate are those who would fear the ultimate decision makers and real owners of government: the voters. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote: So Jim - everytime there is a split vote on the council those in the minority could and should call for and be granted a referendum? If those on the minority side want a referendum couldn't they muster up enough names on a petition to make it happen? Salty, I am not in favor of using citizen referendums on every issue, but I do think they have a necessary place on the really important issues which are divisive to a community. And it seems to me, that parks in Summerfield and a town imposed taxation certainly rise to the level of being extremely important issues of major interest to most voters. I do believe that you are correct, that a referendum could be initiated by either side initiating a petition, but in the instant case, it would make more sense for both sides to agree to initiatives and then the town council could place these matters on the ballot for the next scheduled election which would eliminate any costs or charges to the town (as Vicki refers to in her post). Obviously, if I truly believed in the rightness of my idea and the strength of my support, I would elect to be the Leader for change, rather than simply a Follower. There seems to be a lot of fear in Summerfield right now and it ain't all coming from just one side of this debate either. |
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macca Member
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If I understand this grant application process, the Town of Summerfield held hearings and gathered input from its citizens. The guidelines are very clear, and the town met them. As with any funding source, there is lots of competition for these funds. If Summerfield misses this round, it will be at least another year before they can even apply. If they wait for a referendum, this would delay it even longer. In the meantime, lost opportunities for the families and children.... |
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Skiddles Member
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I find it very concerning that Ms. Strickland has taken it upon herself to sabotage and be deceitful to to have what she thinks is best to happen for the citizens of Summerfield, regardless of the majority vote. This isn't right! She has had her say and her vote... you can't have your cake and eat it too. |
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FatPappy Member
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As far as I'm concerned, as a Summerfield resident an' voter, the decision has been made by our elected officials in a fair an' open process. The question I ask is why should we agree to let these TWO individuals, Strickland an' Dunham, put that decision aside on their own? That's not how it works. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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macca wrote: If I understand this grant application process, the Town of Summerfield held hearings and gathered input from its citizens. The guidelines are very clear, and the town met them. As with any funding source, there is lots of competition for these funds. To paraphrase what you just said in my own words: the grant application process is a political process from one end to the other. And all parts in between. And we both know what can happen when politics and politicians get involved. in anything........... |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Ok Jim I am going to try to make my stance clear one last time then I will leave this discussion to some one else. I do not understand why you feel is necessary to assign pejorative words such as fear to my opinion. I first off offer that you have no idea how or why I arrived at my opinion. Maybe I view your solution as a direct slam against a representative form of government, maybe I as a tax payer do not want my tax money spent having to have an election everytime the council splits on the vote, maybe I understand that the majority rules and if I don't agree then I will work harder at the next election to make my views the majority. I under no circumstances "fear" the voters decision. Having said that I will go back to the original topic which is the fact that Ms Strickland as a representative of the Summerfield Town Council went behind the backs of the other council members to thwart the Town getting a $500,00 matching grant. I view this as a flagrant abuse of the power vested in her as an elected official and if she were to do the right thing she would resign because she obviously does not understand a representative form of government. She needs to go back to being a private citizen. |
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macca Member
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Paraphrase all you want... I wrote what I meant to say. I don't know nuthin' 'bout no politics as it pertains to the application process .... |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: As far as I'm concerned, as a Summerfield resident an' voter, the decision has been made by our elected officials in a fair an' open process. The question I ask is why should we agree to let these TWO individuals, Strickland an' Dunham, put that decision aside on their own? That's not how it works. Minorities challenge majority decisions every day both in the courts of law and the courts of public opinion. Simply because anyone is an elected public official does not mean that person doesn't have a right to continue to lobby for and fight for the minority position in whatever manner of one's choosing. Even the 'dissenters' or minority voters on the US Supreme Court are allowed to proffer dissenting opinions to the public case. As the old saying goes, All's fair in love and war, and as you said Pappy in describing the situation in Summerfield, let's get back to the war. There sure ain't no love lost on either side neither. |
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macca Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote:I hope that there will be a lot of people coming to the Town Council meeting Tuesday night to say democracy is important. We do not want to be represented by some other form of government that takes alway the majorities rights. Come Tuesday night to Town Council and speak out against this abuse of power. What time does that meeting begin, and where is it held? |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:macca wrote:If I understand this grant application process, the Town of Summerfield held hearings and gathered input from its citizens. The guidelines are very clear, and the town met them. As with any funding source, there is lots of competition for these funds. Isn't a referendum a political process? |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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The State and PartF process tries very hard to make sure the majority of people who care are heard. There was an indepenent survey, There were meetings at churchs, associations and finally meetings with people to get their opinions. The results were over whelming positive as was the opening of phase one of the park with an estimated 800 people. If Ms Strickland has the backing of a majority then let her come forward with a legal petition and get these issues on the ballot otherwise I will continue to think the majority of the people understand the tax and want recreational areas in our town. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: Ok Jim I am going to try to make my stance clear one last time then I will leave this discussion to some one else. I do not understand why you feel is necessary to assign pejorative words such as fear to my opinion. Jane, I too am tiring of the back and forth. My point again, was would either side fear letting the voters decide? Obviously, as an advocate for one side of the argument, you and your 'side' of the debate were simply being asked by me, what does your side fear in letting Summerfield voters decide? Your response has been heard loud and clearly. I think you have answered my question as best you can for the visitors and residents from Summerfield which was the original point of my post as well. So Thank you for your honest response. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: Absolutely. A political referendum is the ultimate political process in being the only one that lets the real owners of government, the citizens, have their voice and say to be heard as the final definitive word. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Minorities challenge majority decisions every day both in the courts of law and the courts of public opinion. Simply because anyone is an elected public official does not mean that person doesn't have a right to continue to lobby for and fight for the minority position in whatever manner of one's choosing. No, not in any manner of one's choosin'. Challengin' the majority is fine, subvertin' the process behind the VOTER'S backs is not. That's not the way fer an elected official to behave if she expects people to trust her. Trust is important. The end does not justify the means. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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The Summerfield Town Council meeting is Tuesday night at 6:30 at the Community builidng which is on Center grove road behind Summerfield elementary school. There is a period at the begining that allows people to stand and speak for 5 minutes on non agenda items. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: Maybe she really is supporting a majority of Summerfield citizens who do not support town imposed property taxes and tax supported parks. Perhaps the only real minority here are the 3 votes on Town Council which do not reflect the larger community majority viewpoint. As far as ends and means, I think we both would agree (if we were both being intellectually honest), that it depends entirely on who's ends are being met as to whether the means are justified. The duplicity of the argument cuts both ways. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:And we both know what can happen when politics and politicians get involved. in anything........... Jim Flynt wrote: A political referendum is the ultimate political process in being the only one that lets the real owners of government, the citizens, have their voice and say to be heard as the final definitive word. Which side are you arguin' here? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Which side are you arguin' here? Obviously, I am arguing only for the side of the citizens and voters. I didn't known there was any other side? |
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macca Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:
If this were true, wouldn't people have come out AFTER the vote to say, "Whoa!!! This is NOT what we want! Do NOT go ahead with this application!" ??? When was this vote held? Wasn't there plenty of time for voters to come forward to stop the process if that's what they wanted? |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:As far as ends and means, I think we both would agree (if we were both being intellectually honest), that it depends entirely on who's ends are being met as to whether the means are justified. The duplicity of the argument cuts both ways. Some people think Judas Iscariot believed it was up to him to get Jesus to "do the right thing" and that's what motivated him to betray him, to force the issue. The end never justifies the means. Never. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Obviously, I am arguing only for the side of the citizens and voters. I didn't known there was any other side? And you're doin' that by sayin' let's settle this with a political process because the political process is not to be trusted? Interestin' ... |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: The end never justifies the means. Never. Oh come on Pappy, you know better than that. If the ends in World War II were to stop Hitler and his genocide, were there any means which would not have been justified in furthering those ends? If the ends in any society are to abolish an oppressive political dictatorship, are you saying that would not justify using whatever means necessary to abolish such? Judas Iscariot was a nice red herring though. Where did you catch that one? Last edited on Mar 11th, 2007 04:16 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: What I said was pretty simple and clear when read in complete context: I have always believed that the voters are the ultimate and best decision makers, as they should be. I suppose I just have more faith in the intelligence and wisdom of the voters than you do. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:If the ends in World War II were to stop Hitler and his genocide, were there any means which would not have been justified in furthering those ends? If we killed ever'body on the planet, that would stop Hitler an' Idi Amin an' the Invisible Knights o' the Klu Klux Klan, but I don't think that noble end would justify the means. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: That is called a non sequitur argument in debate Pappy, so I won't respond from my end to such tomfoolery in logic. Let's see: You've tried the ad hominum, the red herring and now the non sequitur. What's next: the ad nauseam? Last edited on Mar 11th, 2007 04:23 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:FatPappy wrote:Jim Flynt wrote: I was just answerin' yer question by showin' a extreme example that refutes it. I think Stephen Hawkin' uses that one. I'll look forward to your end respondin' on some other subject then. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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I'll look forward to your end respondin' on some other subject then. With that end in mind, I think I will take leave now and go enjoy a beautiful day outside folks. Ya'll have a great day and find something to smile about today while letting go of the small stuff. |
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SaltyDog Member
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Question - Has any individual or group been clamoring for a referendum on parks and they have been denied? If so who and when? |
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WB Member
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I was appalled when I heard about the letters written by Ms Dunham and Ms Strickland that were meant to torpedo Summerfield's grant application for a PARTF grant to build Phase 2 of the park. I wonder what de Tocqueville would have thought about the state of democracy in small-town America when a very small number of people can try to impose their own will by such devious and disreputable means. Sadly, there are only limited solutions to the issue. Ms Dunham, as an individual citizen can say and write pretty much as she wishes. However, although it runs against Mayor Brown's fundamentally good nature, I think he should run a stopwatch on her speeches at Town Council and forcefully cut her off at the precise point when her five minutes expires. Plus, I think he should eject her from the meeting when she inevitably becomes disruptive. The situation of Ms Strickland, as an elected representative is far more serious. Sadly, I understand that there is no process for Council to impeach an elected member, nor is there a process for a recall election that might be initiated via petition. But I believe that at the very least, Council should vote to censure her for trying to subvert a Town Council vote and for ultimately wasting hundreds of hours by volunteers trying to drive forward the process to build something nice for the community. If the town's PARTF application is eventually denied, I hope that both Ms Dunham and Ms Strickland find pleasure in the very nice park facilities that will be built in other people's communities with the tax dollars paid by the citizens of Summerfield. When you think about it, it's sad really. I can't help but think that both Ms Dunham and Ms Strickland would be so much happier in their lives if they lived somewhere else. I would be one of the hundreds of citizens who would be waving tear-filled hankies at their moving vans as they crossed the town limits.... out of Summerfield. |
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FatPappy Member
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I don't consider subversion of the democratic process a small thang, an' that's what this started out about. (Get a laptop, Jim. You can sit on the deck an' enjoy the day whilst transactin' bidness.) |
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FatPappy Member
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SaltyDog wrote:Question - Has any individual or group been clamoring for a referendum on parks and they have been denied? If so who and when? Good question, Salty. |
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SaltyDog Member
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Maybe Sandra knows? |
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SaltyDog Member
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If there were a referendum who would write it? The folks who say it will cost $5 million? Hey we could have a referendum on who gets to write the referendum. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: SaltyDog wrote: Gosh, and I hadn't even gotten out the door...... Not that I would know, but I am not aware of anyone calling for a referendum on parks or taxes. But I think if you will look back over a couple of these threads this morning, you will see that it was me who suggested a referendum in Summerfield as a way to put the whole matter of division and discussion to bed for both sides of the issue. And I really and truly believe that in the end, it is and will be the only way. Otherwise the other side (whichever side the other side is) will never trust and have faith that a majority of citizens viewpoints were heard or represented. Now this time, I really am out of here for the day. Good Luck Skiddles and Bama! |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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That's exactly the point Salty. Where are the down trodden massess that Ms Stickland and Dunham refer to. Did they vote in the election? Smallest turn out in for ever for Summerfield, did they come to the public hearings, did they go the the churchs , associations open meeting held to discuss the parks. If they don't come, they don't vote and they don't find some way to let others know their issues then they don't exist!!! |
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Starcatchr Member 
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Jim Flynt wrote:
See you at the park, Jim! |
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Cracker Jax Member
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I am also appalled at the actions of Strickland. Yes, Dunham is a private citizen and can write whatever lies she wishes, but Strickland's accompanying letter could have given Dunham's the appearance of validity in the eyes of the grant approval folks. I feel sure that was Strickland's intent. If a censure from council is all she had to worry about, then why not? What else can be done to her? I still can't get over the fact that Dunham states that Councilman Strickland was the first councilperson to support ballfields, parks and openspace. What a joke. The lies in Dunham's letter are just too numerous to mention. I gotta give Dunham credit. She must be pretty quick on her feet to avoid all those lightenin' bolts that had to be comin' out of the sky when she wrote that letter..... Last edited on Mar 11th, 2007 05:23 pm by Cracker Jax |
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WB Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
I have never been a student of Machiavellian politics. Perhaps I'm naive, but I would never have thought that certain people in our small community could be so dirty as to sabotage the long hours of work that have gone into the phase 2 PARTF grant application. It's like a pair of naughty spoiled children who will cry and scream and make everyone's life miserable unless they get their own way. |
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Steve Adkins Member
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WB wrote: I have never been a student of Machiavellian politics. Perhaps I'm naive, but I would never have thought that certain people in our small community could be so dirty as to sabotage the long hours of work that have gone into the phase 2 PARTF grant application. It's like a pair of naughty spoiled children who will cry and scream and make everyone's life miserable unless they get their own way. Good analogy, I was thinking more along the lines of ..........it's like the naughty teenager who finds the ballfield in pristine condition, then goes and tears it up with his car tires spinning all the way. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Dunham, Strickland, and Support of ballfields ? What? Her actions, voting, and attacks on good people don't show this. So tell me when or where did she start supporting ball fields because it is not shown in Summerfield. Mrs Strickland lives within walking distance and has never came in to watch a ball game to my knowledge. Support? How? Please enlighten me here. ANYONE?? JIM?? Shamu?? Becky?? Mrs Dunham? Please tell me at what level has this support came from. Not in a vote. Donation? Not to my knowledge. Actions? NOT!! Volunteer? HA HA |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Wonder what part of the country Ms Strickland and Ms Dunham come from that this kind of deceitful, dirty politics would be acceptable. Certainly not Summerfield where up until this time we have fought our differences out in public not behind closed doors or in closed sessions and certainly not behind the backs of the citizens. The Concerned citizens have done their best to try to prove some sort of dishonesty going on in this town until they arrived to save the day with no results. Ms Dunhams has requested reams of paper under the FOIA with absolutely no misdeeds found until now. I think the Towns only misdeed is being sucked in by the Concerned Citzens rhetoric and paranoia and electing them to office. |
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happycamper Member 
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It seems to me that any time that the taxpayers money is being involved to this degree, that there should be a "vote" taken by the citizens. Yes, we elected them to represent us as a whole, however there are times when even the folks in the "big" cities (that have been elected), put large ticket items up to vote. I can live with the majority decision in a vote, it is tough however to swallow items such as additional parks(amphitheatres)etc. that are being paid by my tax money. I realize that the matching money is a part of the whole package, however I do know that there are many , many people in Summerfield that would rather not have phase II of the park, nor many of the other items being discussed., if it means even the most remote possibility of taxes being raised ( in the future or present). These folks are quiet, like myself, but when election time comes around look for a candidate that is for low/no spending and no/low taxes.. Gee, that's why so many people moved out our way (including myself)... We could appreciate the Country living, while at the same time taking advantage of what Greensboro has to offer ( parks, recreation,coliseum,museums, ball parks,and last but not least Mcdonalds). , with a short 10 min drive.. ( My buddies in Greensboro can't stand the fact that they pay for things like the Colisium , Natural Science Center, etc,... yet, I get to use them just like they do... and I make sure to rub it in>! To me it's like " we have the money, lets see what we can spend it on" mentality.And even though 800+ people ? attending the opening of the park was great., that leaves a lot more that either did not want to attend, did not care, or did not even know. You would be surprised at the number of people out here that do not even know the park has opened. In conclusion...I am not dead set against the city having a few things, A truck, some nice athletic fields, etc.. Let's just make sure the decisions are made with the "majority" of the folks in mind... And that means taking the vote to the people., not just sending out some questionnaires ( by the way I bump into very few folks in Summerfield that have ever received a questionnaire). If I am not in the majority, so be it, I have 2 choices.. either stay and pay the taxes or keep on moving.. I'd prefer to stay. |
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Skiddles Member
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I really don't understand where these people have been happy. This park has been talked about for years. It has been in the news, in both Greensboro's and the NWO papers, 3 town surveys/ or informational letters, workshops, speeches at churches, organizations and neighborhood associations, Founder's day celebrations, Town meetings, the schools, notices to the families in the SRA, etc, etc. etc. This idea didn't just come to light last week it has been in the works for 8 or 9 years now with no opposition really except for a few.... Please help me understand? |
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Cracker Jax Member
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I just wanted to interject that Ryan Seals has written an article about BS's letter to the PartF people.... Thanks Ryan! Now back to business...... |
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Cracker Jax Member
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happycamper wrote: You would be surprised at the number of people out here that do not even know the park has opened. I'm not surprised at all happycamper. I met someone just the other day who didn't know about the park and I jokingly asked them if they'd been living under a rock or something. It is our duty as citizens, no matter what side of the fence we side on, to encourage others to pick up a paper once in a while and learn something about what is going on in the community... You can't blame those who are busy volunteering in the community on a project for the past 8-9 years with no dissention, for not wanting to throw up their hands in defeat. Surely you must see how frustrating it is for the people who have worked all these years on seeing the park vision become a reality, to hear the people who don't care enough to learn what's going on, until somebody screams "your taxes are being spent and are going to be raised at any moment!" at them and gets them all in a dither so that they feel compelled to jump in at the eleventh hour and say "stop!" You said that you aren't opposed to a truck or athletic fields. I think that's great. What about at least 800 somebodys out there who would like to have a park? I wonder. Do you have a mental picture of what the proposed amphitheater will look like? I'd seriously like to know what folks who don't come to the meetings, don't go to town hall and see the drawings and are only listening to the propaganda floating around out there think the amphitheater is going to be like. Ms. Dunham would have you believe that it is a 4 million dollar complex that will impose a hardship on the infrastructure of our community. It is in fact a couple of levels of grassy areas where scout troops, classrooms and citizens can gather for group events. You're gonna even have to provide your own chair or blanket. The 4 mil wouldn't cover chairs. The amphitheater is not going to be a tax burden as they would have you believe. Are you aware happycamper that the 500,000 grant money that was being applied for was a "rebate" of taxes that you have paid in already? Your tax money that will most likely go to another community. |
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StewartM Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
Why would you want another Town to get your Tax Dollars..... BS and Mom is trying to give your Summerfield money to another Town.... |
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FatPappy Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
Very good post, Crackah. You made some excellent points. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
Please explain how state grant funding is an income tax rebate from Summerfield taxpayers? I think if you will check your FACTS you will discover that grants from the State of North Carolina are derived from revenue sources from taxes paid by all residents throughout the State of North Carolina including all 100 counties. Please correct me if I am wrong, but a $500,000.00 grant from the State of North Carolina IS NOT a $500,000.00 tax rebate to Summerfield which was paid into the State of North Carolina by Summerfield citizens. I also think some of you are playing foot loose and fancy free with your FACTS in order to deceive and obfuscate the issue that real property taxes on Summerfield taxpayers and land owners WILL be used to help pay for any proposed park or any other local government services. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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PartF Grants are not just given out free will. They are limited. They are our past tax dollars that we have already paid. Please correct me if I am wrong.There will be no tax increase to receive the PartF Grant. Who ever said that would happen is using a scare tactic to cause a knee jerk reaction from people who just are not educated about the proper facts. Summerfield has spent $20k that was voted on and passed by the council to move forward with the PartF grant aplication. To send out kill letters at the last min. is wasting $20k in Summerfield's tax dollars. So, who is wasting your tax dollars now? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: Summerfield has spent $20k that was voted on and passed by the council to move forward with the PartF grant aplication. To send out kill letters at the last min. is wasting $20k in Summerfield's tax dollars. So, who is wasting your tax dollars now? Given what you got for $20K is a waste for what you got, which is an unscientific survey which would not pass muster with any legitimate pollster and which by the very nature of the questions asked and the questions not asked, led to the conclusions which were intended all along by the initiators. Finally, this 'survey' didn't even attempt to contact nor solicit the very most affected citizens of Summerfield, the real property owners. I could outline dozens of reasons this survey isn't and wasn't worth the paper it is printed on if necessary, and I also know quite well several reputable publicly recognized pollsters (both nationally and regionally) and polling experts who would agree with me. Again, what you're holding out to be a poll of citizens attitudes is unscientific and the margin of error in sampling is probably greater than 100%. For less than half of the $20,000.00 which Summerfield has spent, you actually could have gotten a genuine and genuinely reflective and truly accurate snapshot of resident attitudes which would have actually been quite meaningful. In other words, a real poll of citizen attitudes. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 01:23 am by Jim Flynt |
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macca Member
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Did I hear that someone killed the application last year, before it ever got this far? Or did something to prevent the town from applying for this same grant? |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Jim are you a expert in this field? The people that Summerfield hired are. That is what they do for many cities and towns. I believe and most of the heavy hitting pollsters I have spoken to feel the same, I guess it just matters what circle you run in. My circle is very broad and of all walks of life from all age groups. Just remember your opinion does not count in this matter unless you are a voter in Summerfield. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: obfuscate
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: Jim are you a expert in this field? The people that Summerfield hired are. Glad you asked the question. While I don't consider myself an 'expert' on 'polling' per se, I have been heavily involved as either a campaign manager, political consultant, or campaign staffer for several regional and state wide political campaigns, including successful races for Governor, US Senator and US House of Representatives and NC Council of State offices. In those capacities, I have worked closely and frequently with many nationally and regionally recognized pollsters both in formulation of polls, conducting of polls and interpretation of polls. I understand well the meaning and effect of leading polls and leading questions which lead to the conclusions desired, but which reflect meaningless data and inaccurate conclusions. Additionally, I am a Fellow of the North Carolina Institute of Political Leadership and spent a semester in residence at various locations throughout North Carolina along with 19 other Fellows studying in depth political campaign tactics, strategies, and the tools and techinques of political campaigning. We trained in political polling, in writing and conducting polls and in interpreting polls and then conducted state wide telephone political polling. Additionally, I have attended numerous leadership and leadership development courses at the Center for Creative Leadership as well as having been invited back as a speaker for other leadership courses. I also served first as Chief Page and then, as the Administrative Assistant to the Speaker of the NC House (Speaker Earl Vaughn) in the NC General Assembly for the 2nd half of the legislative sessions, following my good friend and former UNC classmate, the former Lt. Governor of NC, Dennis Wicker, who served in the same capacity in the first half of the 1969 session. I was also selected as a member of the 1st class of Leadership Greensboro and have personally managed 28 political races, winning all but one, and the one lost by only 8 votes. So yes, I do believe I have the political credentials and expertise to possess more than a passing knowledge of polling and proper polling techniques and methodologies. I even have quite a few polling textbooks and handbooks laying around the house, and not even a cursory reading of any of them would confer any integrity or the propriety of generally accepted methods to the so called 'survey' which so many of you are proclaiming as reflecting accuracy of Summerfield citizen sentiment. As I mentioned earlier, I could probably right off the top of my head outline dozens of problems with your survey in the mishandling of recognized polling techniques and methodology which led to an unscientific sampling with unacceptable margins of error. The questions asked were leading and questions which should have been asked were not asked. Finally, the survey takers can't even tell you "who" the polling sample consisted of and there would appear to be some contamination of the poll sample by those outside the personnel who were responsible for conducting this survey. Finally, if I am to understand correctly, the so called experts that Summerfield hired to conduct this 'survey' are/were actually university personnel who's expertise is in recreation and not statistical measurement and polling. Please advise us of any polling credentials these folks may have and any recognized polling experience they have as well. A simple reading of the actual survey used as well as the conclusions by ANY recognized polling expert or pollster (as I mentioned earlier) as well as what is an obvious statistical bias in the actual audience polled would be laughable to anyone with even a hint of real polling expertise and experience. You couldn't sell your survey or the polling techniques employed to any real pollster in America. They would laugh at you at the mere suggestion. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 03:40 am by Jim Flynt |
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Shamu Member
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In response to BBBuddy from a few pages ago. I don't know how many times Becky Strickland has participated in town events or organizations. I don't know what that has to do with anything...so I pass. |
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macca Member
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Usually town functions are a good way to mingle with people of the town, and for them to get to know their elected officials a little better. If no one recalls seeing them at events held in the town, that is just as telling as, say, folks who recall seeing Howard Coble at all kinds of events. He has a reputation for attending as many public events in the district he represents as he can. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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macca wrote: Usually town functions are a good way to mingle with people of the town, and for them to get to know their elected officials a little better. If no one recalls seeing them at events held in the town, that is just as telling as, say, folks who recall seeing Howard Coble at all kinds of events. He has a reputation for attending as many public events in the district he represents as he can. I agree with you that public functions are a good way for candidates and leaders to meet with voters and constituents, yet I am also mindful, that even here in Stokesdale, many of our town councilmen are rarely seen at public events other than perhaps if you visited the church they may attend. While it is a positive thing for both candidate/leader and the public, it is not a requirement of elected officials. Most political campaigns these days are not won the old fashion way of handshaking and backslapping, but rather by way of television, radio, mass mail, email and other more cutting edge technologies which allow a candidate to leverage exposure to a greater number of voters/citizens. I do agree with you that my friend Howard Coble does an outstanding job in getting out and mingling among people as well or better than most any other candidate I have ever met. And I say that even though Ol' Howard is a member of that other political party. I hold Howard in high regard and his first campaign for NC House many moons ago was also the impetus behind my first efforts to help a political candidate as a teenage volunteer for Howard. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: Just remember your opinion does not count in this matter unless you are a voter in Summerfield. Oh, I don't know. You know, I actually know quite a few people in Summerfield too and believe it or not, several pass through and interact with my life on a fairly regular basis. Many I have known since childhood and it is worth remembering that family, social and business connections in the Northwest area run much deeper than many may realize. So while my vote doesn't count in Summerfield (perhaps even some of the Summerfieldians votes don't count either), I do think that perhaps I might have some influence with some of your citizens and they might actually listen to my opinion, even if you elect not to or don't. Finally, while my opinion may not count with you, I suppose I can always make my opinion more viable to others by simply sending a generous political contribution in the future to candidates in Summerfield who somewhat share my views in the hopes that such a contribution might assist them in contacting the only people who's opinion does count, the Summerfield voters. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 03:18 am by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Yawn... |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Boy don't I love the way you elevate debate. |
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FatPappy Member
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Thanks! I was goin' for trenchant. Debate? I thought you were writin' your memoirs. |
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happycamper Member
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"You said that you aren't opposed to a truck or athletic fields. I think that's great. What about at least 800 somebodys out there who would like to have a park? I wonder. Do you have a mental picture of what the proposed amphitheater will look like? I'd seriously like to know what folks who don't come to the meetings, don't go to town hall and see the drawings and are only listening to the propaganda floating around out there think the amphitheater is going to be like. Thanks for your reply. Yes, I do have a mental picture of the amphitheater., and it's not from propaganda. And I do understand where you are coming from, you and many others have worked hard to bring a park to Summerfield.. What I am trying to say is that simply because folks do not attend meetings, pick up the paper, etc.. does not mean that they are not concerned where the money is being spent. I am not saying this is right, but it is what is happening. I am not sure of the exact number of residents in Summerfield now, up around 8-10 thousand? These folks, just like on the federal level, typically do not let their feelings be known on what they consider to be "non news worthy" items. However, these folks do get concerned when the projects start making news, be it in the paper or thru word of mouth. Because these folks do not keep up with the day to day goings-on , they do the only thing they know..vote to get rid of the folks that raised the taxes or promoted something that they did not believe in. I have seen the proposed amphitheatre, I personally do not think it is a big bank buster, and I understand the fact that taxes will not need to be raised(initally) to fund it. Do we need it, that would be my question.Would this same money be spent better elsewhere? Could it be spent elsewhere? If the point is we need to tax and spend in order to get more money ( or our old money back) , then let's make sure that before we spend it we take care of what we need.. If that's ballfields..fine..If that's a new town hall..fine..If that's a new Amphitheatre..fine...lets take a vote and make sure the majority is in agreement. I do feel that simply sending out a survey to a small amount of people, and going under the assumption that the majority of folks want the same thing, simply because they do not show up for meetings or speak up, can be mis leading. I give credit to those who invision something better for the community, those who work hard to get what they want, and those folks that make the time to show up for all of the town meetings.However this only makes up at best 10% of the population. The folks that do not make town meetings, view prints, or voice an opinion early on are by far the overwhelming majority.,These folks should not be blamed for or looked down on simply for these facts. Most have their own reasons for not getting involved.That is one reason why a think a "vote" on large ticket items should be considered. We dont get the "publicity" that typically makes it to the Telvision 6 -oclock news or the radio stations, and if you don't go to meetings or read the NW observer, Most likely you will not become aware of projects that might be of your personal concern. ,many times until it's too late. Now, having said that, once something is voted on, be it in council or by popular vote, I consider it a done deal. I do not approve of trying to undo what has already been approved or disapproved. A lot of time and money has been spent, a lot of folks have had their hearts /minds set on seeing a project to the finish, and it's time to move on.
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FatPappy Member
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happycamper wrote:
Your whole post was well stated, Happy. The part I quoted above is the part I'm interested in discussin', because that's where we are now with the park. The interested public had many chances over the years to learn about an' offer input on the park an' if they chose not to, so be it. Others chose to be involved. At this point, the council has voted to proceed an' I think we should honor that vote an' the hard work of the people who chose to be involved in the process that led up to it. Maybe this will be a learnin' experience fer us all. I apprciate your thoughtful attitude, Happy. Last edited on Mar 13th, 2007 12:36 pm by FatPappy |
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Cracker Jax Member
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You pose some good questions Happycamper, and you seem like a sensible person. I appreciate your open mindedness. I want to make it clear that I don't look down on people who don't know what's going on in town politics. Everyone has their areas of interest and they choose to participate in activities that they find most fulfilling to them. That's ok. That's what makes the world go round. I would just like for folks who come out in opposition to the various projects to do a little leg work and find out some facts about what they are opposing first. That's all. As for the survey, you might not be aware that they have repeatedly discussed how it was distributed at council meetings and I don't think that the town adminstrator has any regrets as to how it was distributed. His distribution list covered as many SF residents as he could reach and the survey was available at town hall for those who did not recieve it. There was a notice in the paper informing folks that the surveys were available. When the survey was conducted, the park wasn't the 'hot topic' that it is now and folks didn't bother to send them in or didn't bother to go and pick one up at town hall. Most probably don't even remember getting it in the mail. I feel like if another survey were conducted, we'd see a larger response from the citizens. Of course that's gonna cost money......
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Well Ms Strickland "outed" Mr. Mike and me yet again at the Town council, when she announced yet again, we had lost and she had won. I am sorry that it is viewed as a win lose situation. I am sorry that Ms Strickland obviously feels we should move away and have nothing more to say or do in the Town of Summerfield. Mr Mike and myself are no longer sitting on the council but for the very same reasons we ran for council, we intend to remain involved in our town. The council is not a monarchy and although it is obvious that the CC's would like to limit free speech , we still have it. I have a right to be involved in my Town and my government and it will take more than comments from a council member to stop me. |
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macca Member
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Woo hoo, Jane!! You go, girl!!! ♥♥♥ |
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StewartM Member
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I agree with you Jane.....Its not about winning or losing....Thats in the past, we need to think about Summerfield's future......It doesn't matter what seat you are in during a town council meeting just as long as you are voicing your opinion..... |
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Starcatchr Member
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You are so right Jane and Mike! Thank you for not being intimidated and for standing up for YOUR town! |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Mr. Mike and Jane, You can still hold your head up high. Mrs. Strickland did not say you 2 committed worse offenses than herself, she only directed that at Mark, Dena, Bob, and Carolyn. Wow!, where did that come from? Call that an apology? |
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Cracker Jax Member
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I particularly liked a comment that Clark Doggett made last night. He stated something like he finds it interesting that 800 residents are a MINORITY when it comes to park supporters, however 700 and some are a MAJORITY when it comes to the votes Strickland received.....Did I get that right? Yay Clark!!! Last edited on Mar 14th, 2007 12:20 pm by Cracker Jax |
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WB Member
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I am still annoyed and angry with the antics of the two representatives from the Concerned Citizens at Town Council. As everyone can see, I am not a frequent contributor to this forum. And some of my previous posts have tried to be conciliatory in nature towards Ms Strickland and Mr Crawford. I've pointed out that they worked the hardest in the past election and had the most signs out and fairly won their spots on Town Council. And as such we owed them our respect. And last Christmas season I asked for rhetoric to tone down and to wish them all a very happy holiday season. Boy, was I wrong. I guess it shows that even though you try to be nice to a bunch of skunks, it won't stop them from spraying you anyway. Some people have noted that it sends a chilling note to have a member of Town Council try to find out an anonymous poster's true identity and whatever else he find out about him. Those people's concerns are well-founded. In my opinion, there is much that an elected representative could do to make a citizen's life less comfortable and having a Town Councilman off on some vendetta should make people afraid of him. But it's really Ms Strickland who takes the cake. It was really slick when you think of it. Having Ms Dunham write her long missive which, as a private citizen, could have taken liberties with the truth; and then follow up with an official-looking letter from a member of Council lent an air of credibility to Ms Dunham's accusations. Very very slick. And also very very dirty. In the NWO, Ms Strickland was quoted as referring to people like me as 'cowardly anonymous bloggers.' But I wonder who the real coward is? Me? Or the elected representative who somehow can't recognize that they've done something terribly inappropriate and dirty and refuses to own up to it. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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WB you are correct about not owning up to doing wrong. How about trying to make others look bad in the process of apologizing so to make yourself look better. That took the cake. |
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Sawdust Member
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When I was a child and I did not get my way with one parent I would ask the other parent. Sometimes with the support of a sibling I would ask for permission of the later parent (without the previous parents knowledge of course) and gain approval after being shot down by the previous parent. Admittedly this was wrong and I immaturely snubbed the previous parent in the process (nah nah nah). Is this roundabout, behind the back ( of the Town Council/citizens ) letter any different than an immature "I can't get my way" so I will resort to other means?...??? Same situation... but as an adult????? It seems to me that we all should accept the fact that we are not always right or atleast we should accept the fact that others may disagree with our desires. By the way my name is Scott Alexander. I thought this would save someone the time of "researching" this fact. SAWDUST |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Great way of looking at this Sawdust. This action was in a sort childish to a point. |
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EditorPS Administrator 
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Sawdust wrote: By the way my name is Scott Alexander. I thought this would save someone the time of "researching" this fact. Thanks for coming out of the closet! And on behalf of at least one of our council members, I appreciate you saving him some time. Maybe the time saved can be used to focus on other important issues, like long-term planning, purchasing athletic fields, etc. And no offense, Scott, but I kind of like the name "Sawdust" better -- mind if I keep calling you that?  |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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The time that was spent by DC looking, lurking, vacuuming, hacking,or checking for glitches could be better spent for something positive. If the time our 2 favorite to talk about council members spend on the witch hunts could be used positively for Summerfield we could have an AWESOME town. |
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doggoneit Member
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Thank goodness for the actions of Becky Strickland and the CC group. How lost is the council in it’s obsession to construct the Disney World of Summerfield. The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Every time I visit the “Park” it is empty. Why are we so set on wasting vast sums of $$ (including state support). What is the obsession with the “Park” and since when is local government responsible for entertainment ?? |
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bama80 Member 
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every time I visit the park it is pretty busy. I will be there tomorrow and saturday. I will yell "doggoneit" when I get there so you can come play with us. Oh, I have gone by there at like 3 am and there are hardly any people out there. Only a few shadows doing something with wrenches and screwdrivers last time I went by late late at night. -just kidding about the wrenches and screws part. Dont send the cops to question me. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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doggoneit wrote: Thank goodness for the actions of Becky Strickland and the CC group. How lost is the council in it’s obsession to construct the Disney World of Summerfield. The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Every time I visit the “Park” it is empty. Why are we so set on wasting vast sums of $$ (including state support). What is the obsession with the “Park” and since when is local government responsible for entertainment ??
I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind. What time of day are you riding by the park and how often? What has the council tried to build that reminds you of Disneyworld? You say thank heavens for the actions of the CC group. Does that mean that you approve of Strickland's attempts to sabatoge the PartF grant? Do you approve of Crawford's potentially illegal activities with regard to the forum and it's participants? What exactly is the council wasting money on that has not been a direct result of something that Crawford and Strickland have done? ~~~~~~~~~~ I challenge you to ride the park on any given day (when it is not pouring down rain) during the afternoon hours when the children are out of school and report back to us that you do not see the park being used. If you do so, we will have to wonder if you are being untruthful or if perhaps you need to clean your glasses. The "obsession" with the park is a result of YEARS of hard work by residents in this town who are nearing their goal in hopes that they can give something beautiful back to the community. This work began LONG before the concerned citizens and their mouthful of lies invaded our town and there was little or NO opposition until they came along. I hope that you will research the park issue further and not just listen to their side of the story. BTW....I'm thinkin' that a Space Mountain type facility over on that Summerfield Road property might be just the ticket! |
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StewartM Member
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doggoneit wrote: Thank goodness for the actions of Becky Strickland and the CC group. How lost is the council in it’s obsession to construct the Disney World of Summerfield. The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Every time I visit the “Park” it is empty. Why are we so set on wasting vast sums of $$ (including state support). What is the obsession with the “Park” and since when is local government responsible for entertainment ?? Get off that "Its a small world" ride. Everyone had a chance to fill out a survey or attend a meeting. Every time (when school is out and no rain) I go by the park there is someone at the park. I have seen people using the trail. People have told me that if the trail was paved all the way, they would be able to use the rest of it. There is no waste here, it is a investment into Summerfield's future. That is what a responsible government does for the people....... |
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bama80 Member
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I think I should not pay for the Stokesdale fire dept or EMS because I've never used either of those two services. The FD sure does make some good bbq though. I plan on stopping by there on saturday to pick some up. --and NO I am not plugging the FD. I have no affiliation with them. I just like to eat. haha. |
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FatPappy Member
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Pappy don't think "entertainment" is quite the right word for our park. I think of it as more along the lines o' wholesome family fun, healthy recreation, sense o' community...that sort o' thing. On t'other hand, when I think o' government sponsored entertainment these days, I cain't he'p but think o' Strickland an' Crawford. I agree, Mr Mike. I see at least one person out an' about at the park almost ever' time I go by. There's just about always some young'uns and their parents on the playground if it's decent out. |
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summerfieldrd Banned
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doggoneit wrote: Thank goodness for the actions of Becky Strickland and the CC group. How lost is the council in it’s obsession to construct the Disney World of Summerfield. The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Every time I visit the “Park” it is empty. Why are we so set on wasting vast sums of $$ (including state support). What is the obsession with the “Park” and since when is local government responsible for entertainment ?? Well, I am waiting to hear your ingenious ideas? Summerfield has over 9 million dollars. I am glad to see it improving the community and being used like it was collected to do. Where I come from, we call it investing -- not wasting. As for the state money: The state already earmarked money for parks. If Summerfield didn't get that money, someone else would. What do you think they would do with it? THEY WOULD BUILD A PARK! That's my tax dollars, and I am glad to see them coming back to me, FINALLY, instead of, say, Oak Ridge, Raleigh, Ashboro. Now, excuse me while I go for my daily walk in the park. I am looking forward to your reply when I get back. |
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bama80 Member
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don't forget to yell "doggoneit" while you are there. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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doggoneit wrote: The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Doggoneit: Puh-leeze don't pop the bubble for folks around here. They actually believe that 'survey' means something (even though in their hearts they know you're right). Let 'em at least continue to live in Fantasyland until after the next election. You see it is like this: A majority of the town council is going to play softball with the citizens and a majority of the voters are going to play hardball with the town council on Election Day. (But puh-leeze keep this a secret and don't tell anyone I told you so). Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 12:18 am by Jim Flynt |
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Sawdust Member
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EditorPS wrote: Sawdust wrote:By the way my name is Scott Alexander. I thought this would save someone the time of "researching" this fact. No problem! Call me what you would like. I... simply... do not appreciate the fact that people (especially elected officials) take it upon themselves to "investigate" loopholes in software or "bypass" due process. It smells and it smells BAD! To "bypass" (Strickland) does not seem to be anything less than unethical... not illegal. However, I believe, it IS ILLEGAL (Crawford - Innocent until proven guilty) to hack into a public domain and attempt to "exploit" this information. We must ask ourselves ...why?....................I will leave with this thought.......WHY? Sawdust |
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EditorPS Administrator
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I guess it's all in your perspective, Sawdust -- while some ask "Why?" others ask "Why not?" |
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SaltyDog Member
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doggoneit wrote: The survey was a joke with no relevance or correlation. Some might say the election of Strickland and Crawford was a joke with no relevance or correlation to a true representation of support from Summerfield residents. Because of what I view as mis-representations and outright lies in the pre-election letters mailed out by the CCs and the low voter turnout it could be that a small minority of voters dominated the election. But those opposed to the views of the CCs could have sent out their own letters and more folks could have voted. Those are the rules, you have an election and Strickland and Crawford won so that's that. The three council members who support the park were also elected. The council voted 3 to 2 to move forward with the park. Those are the rules, Summerfield will have a park so that's that. Councilwoman Strickland was on the losing side of the park issue and wanted to do an end run around the council with her letters to the state trying to derail matching funds. Jim Flynt has suggested Summerfield needs to have a referendum about the park. Perhaps some others think we should have a referendum about whether Strickland and Crawford should remain on the council. Why don't we all just play by the rules and accept the results and seek to change what we don't like in the next election. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 01:52 am by SaltyDog |
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Skiddles Member
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I hear your frustration doggneit, but I find your comments a bit odd in two ways…. First, that you have not seen people use the park. The reason why this seems odd to me is because I do ride by the park all the time and I have several friends that live in the Summerwoods neighborhood and we talk. We all see people using the park most everyday. Now… I do have to say that given a rainy day or a very cold morning or afternoon you won’t see many with umbrellas or winter parkas in the park, but I would like you to feel secure in the fact that the park is being used most all the time. Matter of fact I remember an article written by a gentleman that lives across the street from the playground, he mentioned how the park is being used all of the time and how wonderful it was to have just across the street. It was a nice article. Second…I also find it odd that you would condone disrespectful, misleading and ill-mannered people that have displayed themselves in this way, not only once but on many, many occasions. Their bantering of... this has to be done my way (stomping foot) AND if not, I will have my way at all cost is unacceptable in my mind. Now… this is just the way I see it, but if you call going behind the majority of the people, the town council, Summerfield’s lawyer and staff’s back to accomplish what has been already decided and voted on something else, I would like to know. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 01:50 am by Skiddles |
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Cracker Jax Member
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EditorPS wrote: I guess it's all in your perspective, Sawdust -- while some ask "Why?" others ask "Why not?" I think I know why not.... at least in Strickland's case. I think she KNEW that the town council couldn't do anything to her for taking this action. Nothing. Nada. According to the board of elections, there is no provision in Summerfield's town charter to discipline a council member or to remove a council member from office for inappropriate action... This is something that needs to be changed. And fast. Now the remainder of the town council is gonna take the heat for not doing anything about her, but as far as I know, there's nothing they can do. Except pay for the park with the money we have in the bank. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 01:48 am by Cracker Jax |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote: Perhaps some others think we should have a referendum about whether Strickland and Crawford should remain on the council. What about those folks who think you should have a referendum about whether Barnes, Williams and Collins should remain on the council? Don't those folks deserve to have their voices heard as well? Should those voters be allowed a chance to vote on their concerns as well? Why limit citizens' options to only those you and a small minority favor? |
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SaltyDog Member
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Jim - perhaps you should read my post more carefully. Did I not say that ALL should follow the rules and accept the results? I did not say we should have any kind of referendum. The referendum that counts is the election. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 01:58 am by SaltyDog |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote: The referendum that counts is the election. AMEN. The election is THE ONLY referendum that counts. And I am sure there are lots of Summerfield voters who are counting the days until they can make sure their votes are counted and their voices finally heard. |
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SaltyDog Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: SaltyDog wrote:The referendum that counts is the election. I too am sure there are lots of Summerfield voters who are counting the days until they can make sure their voices are finally heard - But the catch here Jim is that we have differing opinions on whose voice will be the loudest. But our opinions don't really matter. I would hope that whomever is on the short end of the election will accept the results and not try to make excuses about why they lost or try to subvert the will of the new council. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 02:11 am by SaltyDog |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote: I would hope that whomever is on the short end of the election will accept the results and not try to make excuses about why they lost or try to subvert the will of the new council. You mean, sorta kinda like the folks here on the NWO Forum now who so graciously accepted the results of the last election in Summerfield and didn't make excuses for their loss and who tried and continue to try to subvert the will of the majority of voters in the last election? Or were you referring to something else? Puh-leeze let's not be duplicitous. |
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Skiddles Member
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Jim lets try not to make blanket statements about a group of people. I did give our two new councilmen my respect, but I have to say they have disappointed me in how they have conducted themselves so far. Respect is earned .. I gave them every chance to earn mine. |
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SaltyDog Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: SaltyDog wrote:I would hope that whomever is on the short end of the election will accept the results and not try to make excuses about why they lost or try to subvert the will of the new council. Jim do you just want to pick a fight or do your glasses need adjusting? What about the will of the people in the previous elections that duly elected the other 3 members to the council? Don't their votes count until their terms expire? The council voted on the parks and it was approved 3 to 2. What is so hard to understand? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Skiddles wrote: Jim lets try not to make blanket statements about a group of people. I did give our two new councilmen my respect, but I have to say they have disappointed me in how they have conducted themselves so far. Respect is earned .. I gave them every chance to earn mine. Skiddles, it is not important whether you or I or anyone else respects the two new councilmen. Or whether we trust them. Or even like them. What is important is that we all respect the dictates of the majority of voters in the last election and make sure we understand the message those voters were sending. It is important that the larger message for change from the last election not be forgotten nor have fallen on deaf ears. Voters have a way of remembering things even when politicians don't. To me at least, that message has been lost and is being lost on most if not all of you. It is a message, that I clearly think will come back to haunt you and so many others. The political revolution isn't over yet, despite wishful thinking. Ponder that possibility. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 02:29 am by Jim Flynt |
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SaltyDog Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: The political revolution isn't over yet, despite wishful thinking. Ponder that possibility. I hope its not the kind of political revolution where 2 > 3. Ponder that possibility. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 02:39 am by SaltyDog |
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Jim Flynt Member
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SaltyDog wrote:
Let's see that was 4 years ago right? I wonder what the American people's views were four years ago toward the war in Iraq? Remember? Now 4 years later, given what we know now and our dreadful experience in the midst of their civil war, do you know of one sane American politician who would vote to go into war now with Iraq (and live to tell about it after the next election)? So as time elapses and events and circumstances change, when and as the views of a majority of citizens change, it is incumbent for the views of their elected representatives to change as well, or else the majority of voters will change their representatives (by kicking the 'bums' out as they say). But if you and others who adhere to the past want to keep your heads in the sand and rigidly cling to your views of 4 year old doctrines and polls, by all means puh-leeze don't let me stand in your way. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Many, if not most of the voters that voted for the last 2 council members have came out and said that they are embarrassed and wished that they had not supported them. I, yes I, me, myself ,I voted for Becky but not for Dwayne. Many of the once supporting members of the CC's have denounced them and said that they have taken a turn for the worse. This is not what the CC's started out to be. Now less than a couple of handfuls of them are left. What does that say about the powerful CC's? Yes the CC's know how to play the game and play it well. But thats just it, they treat it like a game to win is everything to them win at all cost. If there are more than a dozen CC members left, nobody knows who they are. I would like to know where they are and why they don't come out to support DC and BS? We all see Mrs. Dunham and their couple of cronies, but thats it. CC's Where are you? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: Many, if not most of the voters that voted for the last 2 council members have came out and said that they are embarrassed and wished that they had not supported them. I, yes I, me, myself ,I voted for Becky but not for Dwayne. Many of the once supporting members of the CC's have denounced them and said that they have taken a turn for the worse. This is not what the CC's started out to be. Now less than a couple of handfuls of them are left. What does that say about the powerful CC's? Yes the CC's know how to play the game and play it well. But thats just it, they treat it like a game to win is everything to them win at all cost. If there are more than a dozen CC members left, nobody knows who they are. I would like to know where they are and why they don't come out to support DC and BS? We all see Mrs. Dunham and their couple of cronies, but thats it. CC's Where are you? Baseball Buddy, I think this not so much that we disagree fundamentally, but it is such that we simply see things quite differently. You see the last election as being all about the CC's and I see the last election as disgruntled voters who were disgusted with incumbents and incumbent policies who rather strongly felt the need for a major shift and change in policy and direction. Quite simply, Summefield voters not only hired two 'new managers' in their last election, they also corespondingly fired 'two old managers' not suitable to their tastes (and perhaps pocketbooks). You measure support by the number of members of CC's whereas I measure an underlying sentiment for change based on the total number of voters (not CC members) who voted for a change in direction. You see the change of direction expressed by voters simply as Becky Strickland and Dwayne Crawford as manifested town councilmen and I see an ongoing unresolved inertia which cannot be yet measured until the 'political revolution' is complete (which I would define as a change in direction from either the CC's (as manifested by Strickland and Crawford) and the status quo of the majority of 3. My personal bet is that a majority of Summerfield voters are seeking '3rd way' policies, direction and candidates which neither of us has even seen yet (which falls somewhere in between and in the middle from the two extremes). Whether you are right or I am right, we both can rest assured that the next election cycle in Summerfield will be more than a little interesting and anything but boring. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 03:09 am by Jim Flynt |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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I agree with you! The voters will come out of the woods. When BS and DC were voted in, the Town had it's lowest percentage of voters ever. It will not be boring! You are soooo correct. Great post. One thing. The revolution to take back the Town of Summerfield is on it's way also! |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: One thing. The revolution to take back the Town of Summerfield is on it's way also! Baseball Buddy, I think all sides of the political spectrum would agree with you on that statement. Each side's point of view as to wanting their interests represented and control taken back and away from the those representing the 'other side' is what is at stake. At the heart of this whole matter, is simply the burning central issue for each side as to what role Summerfield government should play in the lives of citizens and their community and how and which government services should be paid for. Some citizens (a minority I believe), surely want a large government bureaucracy which will provide everything for them, while others simply believe that people are governed best who are governed least (the majority). The answer to that core question, by voters, will determine the future political leadership and thus, the future of Summerfield. I look forward to seeing and hearing what voters decide this year and I'm sure you do too. |
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Hairbrush Member
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Jim, I don't understand why you don't see what Becky did as wrong. Last time I checked we lived in a representative democracy. That means that one of the things we have to accept is that the majority decision stands. The council voted 3 - 2 to continue on with phase II of the park and to apply for the PARTF Grant. Whether you agree with that decision or not is something to take up in the next election. If the town so believes that the phase II of the park was a bad idea then those council members will be voted out. But at this time the decision was to go on with the park. Becky refused to stand by that decision and went behind everyone's back to send that letter and in the process broke one of the most important points of representative democracy that you must accept majority rules. Now I am not saying that Becky had to take it lying down. She can rally her supporters and at the next election have her supporters run a candidate that they think will support their view, get the majority of the vote and have another supporter of hers sitting on the council. That is the way it is suppose to work. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush wrote: Last time I checked we lived in a representative democracy. That means that one of the things we have to accept is that the majority decision stands. Hairbrush, obviously I am concerned that we have a quite different understanding of how democracy works and what rights are imposed and instilled by a representative form of government. I am not at all clear from your comments that you have read or understand such American political readings as The Federalist Papers and the attendent arguments therein, nor whether you can discern the differences between the concepts of Jeffersonian versus Jacksonian democratic philosophies. Clearly, I wonder if you are mindful of how even 'majority' decisions made in our NC General Assembly or our US Congress are no sooner passed or adopted than the other sides (various minority interests) seek to undermine such legislative acts through judicial intervention, funding restriction and various and other schemes to delay, deprive or derail unpopular yet 'majority' decisions. History is quite literally and liberally littered with political acts by the majority which were not always as popular with the masses as they were by the representatives. History is also replete with minor as well as major rebellions as well as civil disobedience. 'Majority decisions' once decided that women were not allowed to vote and that 'negroes' had their rights relegated to second class citizenship at best. Separate but equal was a constitutional and legislative 'majority' decision overturned conceptually by the much smaller 9 member minority of a US Supreme Court as you will recall. Dozens of other instances of majority decisions by the legislatures are found overturned in the Supreme Court and other courts of our lands decisions which protected minority rights from an overeaching majority. A 'majority decision' allows American military leaders to continue to conduct a war opposed by more than 70% of all American citizens. Yet, under your concept of representative democracy, those citizens would simply abide by the majority decision and sit by and watch as more American blood is shed until the next election cycle in November of 2008. Under your concept of majority rules, there is no allowance for disaffected minorities to protect or be protected from overreaching majorities (as fear which was omnipresent to our Founders by the way). So many of the great and true leaders of history are the ones such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King and the Dalai Lama who have fought for the rights imperiled to a minority by the super strength of a majority. Whether those majorities operate with or without conscience, there is nothing whatsoever in representative democracy which requires nor dictates that the disaffected minority simply roll over and play dead. So Hairbrush, in the end, I simply adhere to the principles of protecting and advocating for minorities in their never ending fight against majorities without conscience and majorities gone mad with the ego of their collective strength. Might does not make right to me even if it does to you. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 12:42 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote So many of the great and true leaders of history are the ones such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King and the Dalai Lama who have fought for the rights imperiled to a minority by the super strength of a majority. Whether those majorities operate with or without conscience, there is nothing whatsoever in representative democracy which requires nor dictates that the disaffected minority simply roll over and play dead. I hope you are not comparing these great people with BS and DC. That would be the worst comparison in history. These great leaders have done good for all. BS and DC are egomaniacs and self serving. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Baseball Buddy wrote: I hope you are not comparing these great people with BS and DC. That would be the worst comparison in history. These great leaders have done good for all. BS and DC are egomaniacs and self serving. No, I was simply suggesting the names of some well known historical figures who also opposed majority rule and understood the need for protection from an overreaching majority (which the Federalist Papers so eloquently discussed). There are literally dozens if not hundreds more which history would characterize as dissenters from a majority view, but I thought the use of only a few would suffice to make the point. |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Good Jim , I am glad your not comparing these great leaders with BS and DC. Good analogy for the underdog. |
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Hairbrush Member
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Okay Jim, you are right and I am wrong so I am bowing out of this fight. I guess because in this one case I happen to believe in the majority and want to spend my tax money on a park then I certainly can not be in the right. I guess all my years of working as a page and helping in local elections, working in another country helping them understand their new democracy government gives me no understanding, shoot I guess my master's work on democracy in adult education gives me absolutely no understanding, so I gracefully bow out. But no matter what I will never believe that what Becky did was right and ethical and neither will I ever believe that she has the best interest of this town in the fore front. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Hairbrush wrote: I guess because in this one case I happen to believe in the majority and want to spend my tax money on a park then I certainly can not be in the right. Hairbrush, you know as well as I do, that a determination of 'right' or being 'in the right' or being on the 'right side' is simply nothing more than a VALUE JUDGMENT. Obviously, you have very strong feelings and a passion that you are RIGHT but that by no means that the other side is WRONG. The other side always has the same right to believe that they are right as you do in your feelings. And the fight over right, rights and the rights and wrongs in politics and life have been going on since the Garden of Eden and will continue with us until the final chapter of history is completed. As the Quakers would say, all acts and events are actually neutral, and only become positive or negative or right or wrong depending on the value we attach to them. So, in the end, you have ever right to believe you are right, but I do think you may be wrong in believing those others can't be as right in their thinking who equally share a passion and strong feelings in opposition to your ideas on the park. Last edited on Mar 22nd, 2007 01:05 pm by Jim Flynt |
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doggoneit Member
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Talk about entertainment. Forum folks are great. Except it’s the same old group, with the same old lines. Jim Flynt’s comments are at least level headed and the argument thought pattern is more developed. Thank goodness Jim participates. I typically take a business oriented view. Free enterprise, limited government and let the market decide. Moving to Summerfield years ago, I looked for the best school district with the best rural setting. The G-boro water shed land acquisition, organized a group to incorporate Summerfield. Great, a chance to hold off higher tax waste and forced big city government actions. But something developed that was perhaps not anticipated (?) The local group (with good intentions at first) came into power and with more $$ than ever seen before. My take with all politics is that $$ and power leads to no good. With the quick and large home development the tax $$ base grew beyond comprehension. Summerfield has $9 million in the bank and now it must be spent (or invested as some folks say). The big question is how. And who has the business savvy to comprehend the opportunities this amount of money can do. And how do we do this with fair and equitable consequences (unlike the previous administration, which is still fresh in my mind). I have no major problem with the “Park” as it is (but the survey was bogus, pick up a good marketing analysis / statistics book and read up on how a questionnaire should be conducted and you will see the nightmare of errors and miss-interpreted data). My problem is the speed at which some folks are forcing quick decisions without a chance to see other (perhaps better) opportunities for local funds. How about a tax cut ? |
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FatPappy Member
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I think we might be gettin' off track here. Hairbrush, it didn't sound to me like you were calling Strickland's opinion of the park wrong, it sounded like you were calling her decision to go behind the backs of the council wrong. In that case the values you used to reach that determination are ones I heartily agree with. My values also tell me Strickland going behind the backs of the council was wrong. (Whoops. Didn't see doggoneit's post till after I posted. Mine is in reference to the stuff before that.) Last edited on Mar 23rd, 2007 01:51 pm by FatPappy |
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Jim Flynt Member
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doggoneit wrote: Talk about entertainment. Forum folks are great. Except it’s the same old group, with the same old lines. Doggoneit: Your post brings to mind two wonderful quite applicable quotes: The first by Lord Acton: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And the second by Thoreau: There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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doggoneit wrote: I typically take a business oriented view. Summerfield has $9 million in the bank and now it must be spent (or invested as some folks say). The big question is how. And who has the business savvy to comprehend the opportunities this amount of money can do. The larger question should be whether any company with $9 Million dollars cash in the bank and annual income of in excess of $1 Million would hire any of the current town council members to manage and lead their companies or serve on their board of directors? Do these 5 individuals have the education, background and experience to properly manage and lead such an enterprise or serve on the board of directors? Would you hire these same 5 individuals to run your company or serve on your board of directors? If not, then it is time as Donald Trump would say, for taxpayers to simply say 'You're Fired' and then hire a new more professional crew to more effectively manage and respond to the interests of ALL of Summerfield stockholders (and not just the elitist few). |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Would you hire these same 5 individuals to run your company or serve on your board of directors? No surprise, but there are two I would fire at the first opportunity because they've shown they can't be trusted. Whatever qualifications they might claim to have are irrelevant once they've abused their trust. Professional management sounds like a good argument for a council-manager system. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Professional management sounds like a good argument for a council-manager system. Hypothetically, whether you have 5 incompetent managers solely leading your company (or leading your company with the assistance of one administrator), or one manager answering to 5 incompetent board of director members of that same company, the results in the end would be the same. Incompetent results. There are certainly more than 2 incompetent members running your existing company from what I can see. |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:There are certainly more than 2 incompetent members running your existing company from what I can see. Untrustworthiness was my charge against them, not incompetence. Just to clarify. |
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Sawdust Member
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Pappy's correct!!! I do not trust them. And they have earned nothing from my household's perspective. One is attempting to subvert the vote of the council. The fact reamains 3 to 2. The other is hacking into websites. Where does it stop? If we were to ignore the will of the majority, we could have simply left them out of the process to begin with..neither would be right! Sawdust |
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SaltyDog Member
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Have you ever noticed how stupid, ignorant and corrupt are the people who disagree with you? Well that's toungue-in-cheek but it is an attitude that I think was developed by the CCs (and this thread is about the CCs isn't it) in the runup to the 2005 council election. Now it seems that everyone is in that mode because it seems to be the only way to defend yourself. That's too bad because it obscures the legitimate debate about taxes and spending in Summerfield. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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i agree Salty Dog the CC's are now reaping what they sowed back before the election, mistrust of people and no real discussion on the issues. I guess the other old adage that comes to mind is about payback. |
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FatPappy Member
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SaltyDog wrote:Now it seems that everyone is in that mode because it seems to be the only way to defend yourself. That's too bad because it obscures the legitimate debate about taxes and spending in Summerfield. Excellent perspective, Salty. Their extreme adversarial attacks took us by surprise an' were obviously very effective for them in the short term, but in the long term we are seeing how self-destructive their approach has been an' how empty their promises. Painful as it's been, I have to b'lieve this close encounter of the CC kind has been a good thing for us to go through. Maybe we're learnin' somethin' we might not have learned as well another way. As easy as it is to take the bait, we don't have to play by their rules. There are important issues to deal with an' we need to stay focused on the issues. The bait may taste good at first but there's a hook hidden in yonder. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: no real discussion on the issues. Jane, could you kindly point any of us to where either side of Summerfield is having a real discussion of real issues? If there is such a discussion, I for one, am certainly missing it. All I see and read is one side calling the other one names and the other side (the CC's) basically ignoring you. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I believe I said there was no discussion of issues. Did you read it as something else? There is no discussion of issues never really has been just flaming of personalities on both sides since the CC came on the scene. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: I believe I said there was no discussion of issues. Did you read it as something else? There is no discussion of issues never really has been just flaming of personalities on both sides since the CC came on the scene. Jane, given your response to clarify, our thinking is in agreement. Doesn't this whole situation literally beg the question: Where are the peacemakers? "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9). http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/1986v21n5.htm Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 03:28 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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I consider the behavior of the CCs, especially their recent excesses as town council members, is a legitimate issue to be discussed, whether any of them or their supporters want to participate or not. The forum is not populated by professional politicians, journalists, or debaters fer the most part, as far as I know, so to expect to find much beyond the ever'day people who live aroun' here makin' whatever comments that seem fit to them to make, might not be a realistic expectation. To expect people who are appalled by the actions of the CCs to not say something, is also unrealistic. On t'other hand, there are other things goin' on in Summerfield that can be discussed an' I reckon we've all marvelled at some o' the very astute observations by a broad range o' people a person can find on here. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: I consider the behavior of the CCs, especially their recent excesses as town council members, is a legitimate issue to be discussed, whether any of them or their supporters want to participate or not. Given that about every argument or point that could possibly be made has now already been made against the Concerned Citizens, and that every name in the book has been called out at least once in description or defamation of two duly elected Summerfield Town Council representatives, it just seems that most of you are now simply beating a dead horse and are mostly akin to the dog chasing it's own tail. And obviously doing it now, only for your own selfish yet sadistic pleasures. And with only 961 days at the earliest before Summerfield voters can vote out the two present CC's, that's simply way too long a time for a continuance of the name calling and finger pointing. Aren't any of you tired of it yet? I would honestly bet that most Summerfield residents and voters are tired of the name calling and finger pointing on BOTH SIDES. And they make take out THEIR ANGER on both sides. Why you're driving yourself crazier in your anger and desire for revenge, even more than the Concerned Citizens ever could, and in that, I'm sure they take great delight. Pappy, with all due respects, what more can you possibly say that hasn't been said and how many more names do you have left to call them? You're only preaching to the choir. 961 days left in this discussion..........That's a scary thought for the rest of the Northwest and for the good people of Summerfield, who certainly deserve better than either side is presenting. Again, I repeat the question everyone should be asking: WHERE are the PEACEMAKERS? Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 04:59 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Pappy, with all due respects, what more can you possibly say that hasn't been said and how many more names do you have left to call them? I was one of the ones who agreed to get rid of the topic recently because I was tired of it. Somebody else decided there was a need to talk some more about them so they brought it back. If something new comes up, such as Dwayne's hackin' or Becky's bushwhackin', then, yes, people who are outraged by such things will rightly want to talk about it on here. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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As I said earlier Pappy, with all due respects, what more can you possibly say that hasn't been said and how many more names do you have left to call them? This all kind of reminds me of the definition of insanity, which is doing what you always have done and then expecting a different result. Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 05:30 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:Like I said earlier, with all due respects, what more can you possibly say that hasn't been said and how many more names do you have left to call them? And, like I said, if something new comes up, such as Dwayne's hackin' or Becky's bushwhackin', then, yes, people who are outraged by such things will rightly want to talk about it on here. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Those folks really make your blood boil don't they, even as you continue to go round and round in circles chasing your own tail and kicking up dust and driving yourself mad. Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 05:59 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Skiddles Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: Again, I repeat the question everyone should be asking: WHERE are the PEACEMAKERS? So tell me Jim, how do you make peace with people that don't want peace? Compromise doesn't seem to be an option, do you think? |
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Bubbles Member
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There is alot of peacemaker in all of us, but it is unrealistic to not talk about this subject.. Just when things start to die down alittle, these two members of the CC's do something else to blow our minds. I have watched most of u handle this better than I could have...........good going, keep it up |
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Skiddles Member
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Peace or agreements can only be achieved when those participating "respect" (I know I have used this word before) and care for each other's thoughts, feelings and insight. When humans fall short of these spiritual ideals, then we make ourselves vulnerable to pitfalls and failures. So how do you go forward when one or both of the sides do not respect or listen to the other and trust has been compromised?? |
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Skiddles Member
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... and WELCOME BUBBLES! |
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Skiddles Member
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Bubbles wrote: There is alot of peacemaker in all of us, but it is unrealistic to not talk about this subject.. Just when things start to die down alittle, these two members of the CC's do something else to blow our minds. I have watched most of u handle this better than I could have...........good going, keep it up You are right Bubbles, in order to achieve peace all parties have to work together and want peace. If one party is ignoring the other how can you resolve problems? |
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Cracker Jax Member
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WELCOME TO THE FORUM BUBBLES!!!!!! Bubbles wrote: There is alot of peacemaker in all of us, but it is unrealistic to not talk about this subject.. Just when things start to die down alittle, these two members of the CC's do something else to blow our minds. I have watched most of u handle this better than I could have...........good going, keep it up Thanks! And you and Pappy are correct when you say it's unrealistic and naive to think that people are not going to talk about them. I don't care if it's 961 days or a million days. We'll talk about it because it warrants talkin' about, and if there's a minute chance that we can make people pay attention to what's going on in the town, then I figure it's definitely worth my time. Others can do with their time what they will. They can listen to us or not. Their choice. If they get sick of hearing it, there's no need to whine - they can hit that little "X" up there in the top right hand corner. Jump on in anytime and join this tail chasin' circle of canines! We're glad to have ya! Woof! |
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Skiddles Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:Others can do with their time what they will. They can listen to us or not. Their choice. If they get sick of hearing it, there's no need to whine - they can hit that little "X" up there in the top right hand corner. WOOF BACK AT YA CJ |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
That's one way of looking at it, but another way is that Summerfield Voters who get tired of all of the back and forth sniping can also hit that little "X" at the ballot box and clean house of both sides. I imagine Summerfield Voters have and will tire of all this back and forth name calling finger pointing mess even if you folks wish to wallow in it through all eternity. Far be it for me to do anything but hand you more and more rope, while watching iin amusement, while you're so determined to hang yourself and your cause. And please keep those "POSITIVE FACT BASED RESPONSES" coming! Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 10:38 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Skiddles Member
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YES, IT'S PRETTY EASY TO SEE JIM THAT YOUR COMMITS ARE BY DESIGN. Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 10:46 pm by Skiddles |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Skiddles wrote: YES, IT'S PRETTY EASY TO SEE JIM THAT YOUR COMMITS ARE BY DESIGN. Skiddles. I think it is pretty obvious and fair to see every single poster on here posts their comments by design as well. I simply suggested a truce and that a peacemaker be found, but that idea was slapped down with a vengeance. Mea culpa for suggesting a 3rd way. Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 11:13 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Skiddles Member
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No it's not your fault suggesting a solution. But I do have my reservations at this time. I for one would like it to happen for our town. I do remember several saying the same in this thread on an earlier occasion. |
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macca Member
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Jim Flynt wrote:[I simply suggested a truce and that a peacemaker be found, but that idea was slapped down with a vengeance. Mea culpa for suggesting a 3rd way. So, Jim. Where do you see yourself in this process? You seem to enjoy a good argument..... And you've said that your Momma said you'd argue with the wall..... |
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Jim Flynt Member
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macca wrote: Jim Flynt wrote: Actually, Momma said I would argue with the devil (which is why I am so comfortable arguing around here BTW). I don't have a 'role' in the process other than to offer my suggestions, and/or to apply logic where and when there is none. Those of us not having a dog in the fight allows us to see things from the outside without emotion or prejudice. And, I do so feel sorry for the majority of fine Summerfield citizens who don't have a dog in the fight either and are growing tired of the discord. They deserve better from both sides. Last edited on Mar 25th, 2007 11:58 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Bubbles Member
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fine time for everyone to be off line with the new town news............bummer |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Bubbles wrote: fine time for everyone to be off line with the new town news............bummer Gosh. Is there a new town coming to the Northwest? Please tell us more! Neat idea. |
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Shamu Member
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Don't ask for whom the bell tolls. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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Shamu that is really funny!!! Very clever too. |
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Sawdust Member
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Jim how is it you speak for "peace" yet you continuously come across as sarcastic, even condescending at times? You say you are not affiliated with any "group" yet you come down hard on a specific side and do not seem to budge. As a "Free Thinker" certainly, you can understand that you may not always be correct yet you put words in others mouths such as "it is obvious to see..." and you continuously tell them there is another side to be considered. People on this forum are not as ignorant as you seem to assert in your text. To quote you: "What is important is that we all respect the dictates of the majority of voters in the last election and make sure we understand the message those voters were sending. It is important that the larger message for change from the last election not be forgotten nor have fallen on deaf ears. Voters have a way of remembering things even when politicians don't." Correct! It is not only the last election we must respect but also the small ones in between. I do not mind a dissenting argument or vote. That will happen. We do not live in Utopia. However, I do mind the fact that those on the minority side of a vote take action to sabotage the overall process. This thread was begun, simply, to question the tactics of certain council members. This was prior to the - "PartF" paper (unethical) and "CyberSpying" (Illegal?) scandals. Since then, these actions have simply driven home the point. The Point being it does not seem these members have actually accepted the fact that they can win an election and still be a minority in certain circumstances. They are unable to deal with this fact. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Sawdust, I might just have to see if Pappy'll let you borrow his "Hero hat" for a while, cause you're my hero for the day! Shamu, you came close with that tolling bell line though! Too funny! Woo Hoo! Thanks to Sawdust for getting us back on the topic that we came here to discuss... The Concerned Citizens |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Sawdust, we simply disagree in our hearts and with our hearts on Summerfield issues. I simply believe that the good people of Summerfield deserve better than what either side is presenting in their war of words, name calling and finger pointing. And you obviously don't. One is either part of a problem or part of a solution. I simply remain committed to seeking solutions and you simply remain part of creating problems. While I could otherwise dissect your comments and point out the fallacies of logic in your reasoning, in the interest of seeking higher ground in any discussion, I simply refuse to lower myself to the baser expectations of an elitist though minority mob gone mad. I am aware as well of mob thinking and mob anger directed at those who would have the audacity to disagree with their positions or challenge the veracity of their statements. My hide is thick enough, my ego strong enough and my intellect keen enough to more than adequately see past such small minded thinking. And I have enough forgiveness in my heart to move past it toward constructive solutions. Obviously, you cannot see beyond your own innate bias and anger, so feel free to read your own prejudices into my thoughts and statements as you see fit. It will only serve to feed the mob's hunger and stoke their fires for even more vengeance and revenge against anyone seen as an opponent, which I am not, simply in that I have NO DOG in this fight. Quite frankly, the words and deeds on both sides continue to bring great shame and disgrace to the respective interests of each and all and remain unflattering to an otherwise wonderful community which deserves better. You still have another 950 or so days to engage in your negativism and name calling and finger pointing, so please enjoy it even as you drive a majority of wonderful Summerfield citizens to anger and despair toward all sides of a divisive government and divided community. And calling it 'positive fact based response' only adds to the humor and irony and amusement for citizens with minds and men and women of conscience. I simply think there is a better way. May God help you find it. Last edited on Mar 28th, 2007 12:05 pm by Jim Flynt |
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FatPappy Member
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Pappy appreciates your post, Sawdust. You're right, we are smart enough to see what's going on. Certain council members found what they apparently thought was a "better way" to get their agenda passed, but I don't believe it was God who helped them find it. For condemning the improper actions of our elected officials we have been ridiculed as if the offense was ours. Hang in there! |
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bama80 Member
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CROIKEE! Look what the Crocodile Hunter found on the NWO homepage. http://www.nwobserver.com/newsfeed/?p=1262 CRAWFORD RESIGNS FROM SFTC! Guess Macca PI is slipping since I found it first. |
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FatPappy Member
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WOW! |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Well. huh. uh.... I'm speechless.... YAY? Thank you Dwayne? Moving right along... Now what? Does the council appoint the next member? Will that member complete Crawford's full term or will that member just sit on the council until the next election? |
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Shamu Member
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It wasn't intended to be funny. Here's the thing, what happened with Dwayne is a reflection on all of us and effects all of us. Witty, maybe. Funny, not intended. |
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Skiddles Member
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Cracker Jax wrote:
OMG!! Good question CJ. I would like to know this myself. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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You are correct Shamu. It is a reflection on all of us and it does effect all of us. All we (the forum participants) were doing however is stating our opinions on the behavior of the two concerned citizens who were sitting on the council at the time. It is our right to do so. I think Pappy nailed it when he said that we are being ridiculed as if the offense were ours. It is not our offense. In Dwayne's case, it was his mistake to harass us and in Strickland's case I certainly think the PartF letter was her mistake. We knew on election day that the bell tolled for Summerfield. Sorry I laughed at your wittiness. Last edited on Mar 28th, 2007 08:56 pm by Cracker Jax |
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FatPappy Member
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Believe it or not, I think it's a shame that it had to come to this. On the other hand, it couldn't have gone on like it was going, so I'm glad in that sense. Good questions, Crackah. |
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Skiddles Member
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NWO:A special meeting will be held on March 29 at 6:30 p.m. at the Summerfield Town Hall so the council can discuss how to fill the vacancy left by Crawford’s resignation. I know the other council members will do their very best to take care of the situation. I wonder when the new councilman will take his/her seat? Last edited on Mar 28th, 2007 02:09 pm by Skiddles |
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Hairbrush Member
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I do have to say Kudos to Dwayne. I think he did the right thing. The town needs to get back to town business and his actions were just taking us off task. We need to be thinking about the budget, how to get phase II of the park completed, and how to get the change of government (going from council-mayor to council-manager) on the ballot. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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FatPappy wrote: Believe it or not, I think it's a shame that it had to come to this. On the other hand, it couldn't have gone on like it was going, so I'm glad in that sense. I agree Pappy. It is VERY sad that it has come to this. I'm about to be magnanimous here...I know - shocker. I remember way back after the election, posting that I thought Dwayne had potential. I was trying to talk myself into making the best of the situation that we found ourselves in after the election and I truly hoped that we could find middle ground. I liked that Dwayne brought new ideas to the table and that he forced us to think outside of the box at times. At the time I hoped that he would listen to all of the citizens and not just his constituents. I really felt that he would. I think that he just got caught up in the megalomaniacial entity that is Strickland and felt that he and his cause were untouchable. In the process, he felt that it was ok to attack citizens and other council members. That is not ok Dwayne. While I don't condone what he did to the NWO forum or any of it's participants, I do appreciate the time he was willing to donate to the town. I would also hope that if he is not charged with a crime and continues a career in politics, that he learns from this experience and will listen to all of the citizens - whether or not they voted for him. I know that I have certainly learned from the experience. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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FatPappy wrote: Believe it or not, I think it's a shame that it had to come to this. On the other hand, it couldn't have gone on like it was going, so I'm glad in that sense. Pappy, believe it or not, I am in complete agreement with your statement. Now may the healing so desperately needed by all of Summerfield begin. Last edited on Mar 28th, 2007 02:47 pm by Jim Flynt |
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Baseball Buddy Member
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Dwayne has great knowledge of government. I always thought he could have used his time for the better. I wish he would have put his efforts into something more positive for the Town. He always made us think differently and this I hope will continue. Best of luck to Dwayne. |
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Skiddles Member
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Ditto BB... We have certainly been down many paths in Summerfield lately. It is another day and it's time to come together and become one town again. I do wish for all good things to come Dwayne's way. |
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Sawdust Member
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God will help me, certainly. However, talking down to those on this forum "of discussion" will lead to nothing but a deaf ear, maybe even two or seven thousand deaf ears. For you to say (again I quote you) "I simply remain committed to seeking solutions and you simply remain part of creating problems." I refuse to believe that "I" am creating problems with my simple postings on this site! Afterall, I have not betrayed the trust of anyone here.
Sawdust Last edited on Mar 29th, 2007 01:39 am by Sawdust |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Hey Sawdust, some of us are confused by your post several minutes ago. Apparently, you're quoting Jim's earlier post (I didn't trace it back) ... just for emphasis, I assume? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Patti, I think this is the earlier post he was referring to in his comments. Jim Flynt wrote: Sawdust, we simply disagree in our hearts and with our hearts on Summerfield issues. |
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EditorPS Administrator
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Okay, thanks. Now I understand. |
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Sawdust Member
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Patti, Jim and forum please forgive me for my lack of etiquette. I will try to be more specific with references in future posts. Patti, Jim is correct this is the post I was referencing. Thanks for the help Jim, I will be more careful with my on-line references. Sawdust |
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BreBre Member 
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LottieDottie wrote: I'm still unclear as to why the Town Council does not appoint/nominate a Sargent of Arms to handle disruptive behavior at the meetings. Maybe because they like the disruption...that's what I think. By the way, who started the Concerned Citizens? And are the Concerned Citizens and Friends for Summerfield one in the same? |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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The CC's were startedby Dunham, Crawford and Strickland for the most part. Crawford although he claimed to no longer be a part is the person who files the financial statements and is still isted as treasurer. They started in response to Summerfield starting to charge a tax. I have never heard the cc's be for anything that is community building only against things. The Friends for Summerfield were started this year to counter all the negative press that Summerfield is getting. We think the majority of Summerfield, while they may not like paying taxes , understand the necessity of paying taxes in order to be a town. Summerfield's tax last year was 3.5 cents on a hundred. If my math is right that is $35 for every $1,000 of property. We support planning for the future. Support ballfields and parks. Summerfield has some of the most progressive zoning in North Carolina but only because people in Summerfield care enough came together and developed the zoning. We will only have a Town if we care enought, come together and develop this Town. |
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StewartM Member
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Its time to make it YOUR town |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote:
Jane, I am really curious why you would make such a statement. What facts are you basing this statement on? It seems all the more questionable when one considers that Summerfield does not have a current comprehensive land use plan in effect nor a PUD ordinance. I would love to hear your comments about any progressive distinctions which the Summerfield zoning and land use ordinances have which wouldn't be found in other communities' zoning and land use plans. Even your comments on a comparison of the Summerfield versus Oak Ridge ordinance might not only be interesting but enlightening. I have worked with and follow the planning and zoning ordinances for several municipalities in North Carolina, and trust me, Summerfield has a long way to go before their ordinance would be considered progressive by comparison with many other more long standing communities and cities. If you wish to see an example of progressive ordinances, you might wish to consider the Chapel Hill or Carrboro zoning and land use ordinances. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote:
3.5 cents per hundred X 10 = 35 cents per thousand (unless MY math is wrong). $3.50 would be the tax on $10,000.00 of assessed real property value. $35.00 would be the tax on $100,000.00 of assessed real property value. |
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DOGGETTJA Member
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I knew I was wrong when I typed it. Thanks Jim. |
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BreBre Member
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DOGGETTJA wrote: The CC's were startedby Dunham, Crawford and Strickland for the most part. Crawford although he claimed to no longer be a part is the person who files the financial statements and is still isted as treasurer. They started in response to Summerfield starting to charge a tax. I have never heard the cc's be for anything that is community building only against things. Thanks for the info Jane  |
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