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rasin Guest
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There was a letter in today’s NWO about the crosswalk at the academy and drivers not stopping. I agree completely that drivers need to obey the law and watch out for students. I slow down regardless of the time of day when approaching the academy and always stop for students approaching the crosswalk. As with many things this is a two way street (half hearted pun intended). Frequently students and instructors (instructors seem to be the worst offenders in my experience) cross at places other than the crosswalk. Also the students typically start walking out into the crosswalk without checking to see if the driver has enough distance to stop or even sees them crossing. While the truck driver in the letter needed to stop, even with the law on his side the student shouldn’t start crossing until he knows it is safe. Another problem is the students don’t always make it clear that they are ready to cross, you have to guess whether to stop or not. I have gotten used to this and as mentioned above slow down at all times in anticipation of this. The big problem is at night, since the students are in uniform frequently which are a dark blue it is hard to see them. Due to the way the lights are it seems hardest to see them when approaching from the east heading towards 68. Combining this with the behavior noted above it can be hard at times to see and stop in time. Since many of the students may not drive yet they probably don’t understand that just because they can see the car coming with headlights on doesn’t mean that the driver can see them. One suggestion is there are reflective strips that pretty much look like regular material during the day but at night will reflect light. Maybe they can sew some of this material on their pants and shirt cuffs. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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rasin, You're right about this being a two-way street (cute pun). I always drive the speed limit through the Academy, but I'll be honest -- until a couple of years ago when we answered this question in our paper, I didn't know the pedestrian had the right of way and it was up to cars to stop. Now I know! But the students and instructors do have a responsibility here. Just a couple of weeks ago as I was driving through the campus, a student was running through the parking lot parallel to the road. When he got near the crosswalk, he suddenly darted in front of my car, without even looking to see if a car was coming. I nearly hit him because he gave no indication he was going to cross the road. It scared the bejeebers out of me. Thank goodness I was only doing 25 mph! It is definitely a problem after dark. To add to that, the school zone speed limit (25 mph) is only until 6 p.m., at which time it is 35 mph. Of course, in the wintertime, it's dark by then. I guess the DOT has done what they're required to do, but if I were the Academy, I'd think about some extra signage, at least on either end and maybe a couple of places in the middle of the campus. It could say something like "You are entering the Oak Ridge Military Academy campus. Please watch out for our students." |
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Skiddles Member 
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I'm also concerned for the students safety as similar scenarios have happened to me. Another suggestion for safety is to establish an "order of crossing" (they may have one in place, I'm not sure)
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bama80 Member 
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Oh let me pedestrian-rage for a minute. Many people do not know that pedestrians have the right of way in many places. Crosswalks, especially at universities, etc the pedestrian has the right of way. Also, at a stoplight, if the pedestrian is crossing the street correctly (white hand saying walk or a green light in that direction) cars turning are required to yield to the pedestrian. Look this up in your kid's driver's Ed handbook or on an official internet site if you do not understand what I am talking about. Too many people get so mad when you are crossing the street rightfully and legally when they have to wait for you to cross. They think that you are obstructing their road and that you are jaywalking or something. |
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Stonefree Member 
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I have to get in on this discussion. This is an issue that has bothered me for sometime. Okay, first, let's get this out of the way. Drivers should be 100% aware and slow down around any crosswalk or school area, whether the immediately see pedestrians or not. That said, now we can get to my beef. I have also experienced students, and most disturbingly, instructors simply walk onto the crosswalk without even glancing at my car. I have also noticed some of them look at me from the side of their eye and then immediatly move onto the crosswalk rather quickly. I find this behavior to be both disturbing and dangerous. "Testing" to see if someone will stop is as dangerous to yourself and the motorist as any other scenario. When you do that you are not just playing with your own life, you are endangering the lives of the motorist, anyone in their car and surrounding vehicles and pedestrians. News flash, this is not a fantasy world, it is not enough that you have the right of way, you still have to be smart and use your head. While i know that kids have about 10,000 other things they would rather be thinking of than pedestrian safety, there is not excuse for the instructor violations of this. I would like to know what specifically ORMA says to its students regarding the crosswalks and what they say to the instructors as well. The answer should be more than just pedestrian rights. It is disturbing that instructors do this as well, as they are the role models for students and by setting this mark of "walking without looking" they are endangering the lives of students that blindly believe "the instructor is correct". In truth, during school hours, there should be a cross guard at the facility. With the amount of traffic that 150 gets during the course of a business day, it would scare me if i was parent sending my child there without the school providing some kind of student supervision at the crosswalks. Stonefree |
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Stonefree Member
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What is sad skiddles is that this stuff should be Human 101 stuff that these kids, and especially instructors, should already know. Pretty much this should fall just after learning to breath in and out. |
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bama80 Member
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Kinda like learning how to work a 4 way stop and a traffic circle. |
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Skiddles Member
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Absolutely, Human 101 (people - vs- cars = no contest for people) plus motorist are to ALWAYS yield to pedestrians… Yep, we all know this. I am agreeing with everything that has been said, but as stated, this is not a perfect world. Some students and instructors do cross the road with a hope and a pray. This is why I drive very slow & carefully through this area as motorists are directed to do so for the safety of the students, instructors, motorists & etc. What I am hearing is a two fold problem or the "two way street." For the motorist, yes, a set of laws are clearly written in the DMV’s handbook and taught in Driver’s Ed, but do all people follow the law? No way. This is problem #1, the motorist. The suggestions of a crossing guard at specific times along with additional signage would help the situation. Problem #2 - the Human factor, which is what I was addressing. Yes, it is correct that kids will be kids (I know, I have 3). But should they engage in horse play, get distracted or jokingly push and play around the roadside or at a crosswalk? No way. I see no problem in ORMA establishing a set of rules for crossing… now, I know your mother or father did teach you this a long time ago, but if some of the students and facility are not using good judgment while crossing the road, then Human 101 needs to be revisited and guidelines given. Giving the students guiding principles to keep them safe in no way discounts the motorist’s responsibility, it just adds to the solution. |
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Skiddles Member
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bama80 wrote: Kinda like learning how to work a 4 way stop and a traffic circle. I love 4 way stops and traffic circles.. but I agree, so many don't know what to do when they get to them!!  |
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Steve Adkins Member 
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bama80 wrote: Oh let me pedestrian-rage for a minute. Many people do not know that pedestrians have the right of way in many places. Crosswalks, especially at universities, etc the pedestrian has the right of way. We are fortunate to have these laws in the USA. Unfortunately they're marginally respected by many as the above discussion indicates. there are many countries in the world where this is not the case, where pedestrians are on their own. Primarily 3rd world countries. I've personally had many scares from drivers asserting themselves. We're fortunate to have the law on the side of the pedestrian...........now if the pedestrian would just use some common sense !! |
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Stonefree Member
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WOW! I almost forgot the other HUGE part of my beef. ORMA's deathtrap athletic uniforms. Great combo, blue/black without any reflective material in a darkened campus at night.....good choice (thumbs up!). Why not issue them ninja warrior suits and have drop onto 150 from the treetops?! I have experienced countless upon countless times of not seeing students, even when i squint at night and have heard from several others of similar experiences. With the number of DUI arrests on 150 (Oak Ridge Rd.) you would think they would take this stuff into consideration. Whoever the genius was that came up with their sweat outfits should be nominated for the "Get a Clue" award. Let me break them down: 1. Color, black or dark blue. Small white emblem, absolutely no refective material of any kind on them. In case the school doesn't understand this...at night, it is dark...so dark clothing is not recommended for students crossing a road by every fricken safety group on planet Earth. And i would have to guess any planet that has a night and day would have similar safety concerns. 2. They have the students out at night, and remember, in the winter, night begins as early as 5:30-6pm. I have had several moments of not seeing a student until they happen to pass by a light source while they are running or jogging in a line. What is going on with this, has anyone else experienced this or am i taking crazy pills. Stonefree |
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Cracker Jax Member 
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Stonefree wrote: Why not issue them ninja warrior suits and have drop onto 150 from the treetops?! Thanks for the morning chuckle Stonefree!!! I agree with you. They should do all they can to make the students/staff more visible to drivers. |
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macca Member 
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Yeah! Having the legal right of way doesn't mean a heck of a lot when you're lying smushed on the road.... |
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kidwell Member 
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I love it Stonefree..Ninja's!! anyways there needs to be a much brigher dusk to dawn light there at the crosswalk because the one there lights nothing!!Won't help the fast drivers or darting kids but for the rest that try and watch it would be a lot easier since I doubt they will change any uniforms! |
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rasin Guest
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I think the problem with the lights isn't enough light, it is more that the lights are in the wrong place. With better placement might even be able to eliminate some of the lights and get better coverage and visibility. |
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zippitydoodah Member
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If a few people got tickets and the Highway Patrol would regularly patrol, maybe drivers would slow down through that area and yield to pedestrians. Didn't the school zone speed limit (25 MPH) used to be in affect until something like 10 PM? That was changed sometime in the last few years. Why in the world would they change that? Kids cross the road all times of the day and after dark. Ninjas dropping from the trees -- no please!!!!!! |
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BreBre Member 
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Skiddles wrote: I'm also concerned for the students safety as similar scenarios have happened to me.I totally agree with you Skiddles!  BreBre |
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ff12 Member 
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The highway patrol has enough to do on hwy.68 and the interstate. With only 4 on duty at a time kind of hard to be every where. Now if oak ridge had a town deputy as we do in Stokesdale the area could be a little better patrolled. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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ff12 wrote: Now if oak ridge had a town deputy as we do in Stokesdale the area could be a little better patrolled. Some Local Governments and their BIG $PENDING supporters seem to think there are NO problems in the NW that raising your taxes can't cure. Last edited on Feb 25th, 2007 07:42 pm by Jim Flynt |
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ff12 Member
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we still do not have any tax and we have a deputy on duty plus regular coverage, seems like a good way to spend our money. |
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Jim Flynt Member
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ff12 wrote: we still do not have any tax and we have a deputy on duty plus regular coverage, seems like a good way to spend our money. THAT was the point I was trying to make too ff. GMTA. |
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Steve Adkins Member
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Jim Flynt wrote: ff12 wrote:we still do not have any tax and we have a deputy on duty plus regular coverage, seems like a good way to spend our money. I'll bite. What does GMTA mean? |
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Jim Flynt Member
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Steve Adkins wrote: I'll bite. What does GMTA mean? Great Minds Think Alike. |
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bama80 Member
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or what the 80's guy says to his wife when he gets in a barfight- "Get My Trans Am!" |
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ff12 Member
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I didnt get gmta either, but I like bamas version , do we need a mullet to drive a T. A. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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Ahem... Okay all you great minds, I hate to be the meanie, but don't make me pull out my "Off Topic" sign. |
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ORMA Booster Member
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Thank you, everyone, for showing your concern for this topic. I am one of the instructors at ORMA, but first of all, let me assure you that I value my safety, and never dare cross 150 without taking proper precautions (making sure my life insurance is paid in full, looking both ways, waiting 5 or 10 minutes for there to be a break in traffic, etc.) The Academy is an 1853 institution trying to adapt to 21st century traffic. When it was built, there were probably 2 or 3 farmers clip-clopping past a day. Now, there's a 5:00 traffic jam at the intersection. Even when I started teaching there 8 years ago, traffic was not at the level it is now, due to all of the recent development. All of your posts make excellent points about both instructors and students needing to do our part to ensure our own safety, as well as that of the motorists. It disturbs me that I and my coworkers are considered part of the problem, and I will bring this up with our administration. Certainly some discussion and reminders during staff meetings are in order. I will also talk to them about training the students better about safety rules. You need to realize though, that we have students arriving year round from all over the world. I just got 2 new students last week, so safety procedures would need to be taught individually to each student as they arrive. Also, we are dealing with teenagers from age 12 to 18- and not always the most responsible group of teenagers at that. Their parents have sent them to us to teach their kids the rules and discipline they are (for some reason) unable to teach their own children at home. Apparently, some of the parents have failed to teach their children common sense. The fact is, our uniforms are dark colored. It would not make sense to have the students doing sports, pushups and other physical activity in light colored uniforms. Adding reflective tape would probably make our uniforms too expensive. But that is a valid point, and if it is creating a safety hazard for the community, perhaps other options can be explored. We certainly could use some additional lighting and signage, but some of that may fall under the county or state jurisdiction, because it is a state highway. We will have to look into that. Also, we do have students crossing the road at all hours of the day and night. They need to take their laundry to the quartermaster about 9:30 pm after evening study hall, and they often have away games and other events where they get back to campus well after dark. We need to extend the hours of our "school zone" time. We should probably make it from 5 or 6:00 am until 10 or 11:00 at night. So thank you, everyone, for all of your comments and suggestions. If no one objects, I will share them with our administration, to see if we can get better procedures in place, and if there are any improvements we can do, on our part. I do have to agree with the teacher who posted the original letter in the print version of the NWO however, because the drivers speeding through our school zone has gotten worse and worse every year. Drivers would never go 50 mph or more through the Oak Ridge Elementary zone (at least I hope they wouldn't), and no one even crosses there. Yet we have our entire student body, faculty and staff crossing all day long, and people drive like maniacs through our zone. As far as dressing the students like ninjas, please don't give them any more crazy ideas!  |
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Steve Adkins Member
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ORMA Booster wrote: So thank you, everyone, for all of your comments and suggestions. If no one objects, I will share them with our administration, to see if we can get better procedures in place, and if there are any improvements we can do, on our part. Thanks for joining us ORMA Booster. By all means, express our concern to your admin, there just cannot be enough attention to safety, this forum is pointing out that many people are concerned and don't way to see anyone from ORMA get injured. |
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Cracker Jax Member
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Welcome to the forum ORMA booster! It's obvious that you are a caring teacher and we appreciate your willingness to share the ideas posted here with the ORMA admin. It seems to me that some of those children who weren't taught common sense by their parents have grown up to be motorists who don't watch out for pedestrians. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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ORMA Booster - Thanks so much for joining the forum, and for your insight on this problem. I think it would be great if the academy, the town, the DOT, the Highway Patrol, local citizens, drivers, etc. could work on this together and hopefully come up with some answers. |
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EditorPS Administrator 
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ORMA Booster wrote: Thank you, everyone, for showing your concern for this topic ... Excellent post above, ORMA Booster, and thanks for joining us. Also, many thanks for making such good, constructive use of our forum -- open minds and ears from people on all sides of the road are at the foundation of solving these sorts of problems. Hope you won't be a stranger to us on this forum! |
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ORMA Booster Member
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Thanks for the nice welcome- I appreciate all of the friendly comments. I just wanted to say that ORMA's current administration really values our being good members of the community, and is working to restore ORMA's physical appearance and reputation. We have a lot of positive things going on- you may have noticed we renovated our main building, Alumni Hall, thanks to some generous contributions. We are slowly working on other areas of campus, and the crosswalk is one area that could definitely stand improvement. So, please keep the lines of communication open, and if anyone has concerns, we would prefer to hear about it so we can do something. As far as teaching the cadets common sense, believe me, we do our best! |
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S. Smith Moderator
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ORMA Booster wrote:
ORMAB, This brings up a question. I don't know how long you've been affiliated with the school, but sometime in the last few years the hours on the school zone signs were changed. For years they said a later time -- I'm thinking it was more like 9 p.m. How and why was this changed? Could the academy and/or the town ask the DOT to change it back or even make it later, as you've suggested? |
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WB Member
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I like to think of myself as a safe and experienced driver. With close to 40 years of driving experience I have never had an accident, and I have never had a violation. No tickets for anything. That being said, I did not know that the ORMA crosswalks gave the right-of-way to pedestrians. I thought the crosswalks were merely precautionary to motorists that pedestrians might be around, but I didn't know that I had to yield. I've cruised through that area many times without a clue that I had to yield there. I thought that the diamond-shaped sign conveyed a warning message, not a transference in right of way. Perhaps another sign might help clarify to cars that they have to yield. I think that if I didn't know, then probably there are many others that also don't know they have to yield there. Bottom line, students can't assume that cars will stop for them even if they are in the crosswalk. As an aside, I also have a diesel locomotive engineer's license. I can't tell you how many times I've seen cars and trucks cross tracks right in front of a train even though the train has the right of way, and is exponentially larger than even the largest truck. |
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S. Smith Moderator
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WB wrote:
Thanks, WB. I thought I was the only one who must have been sleeping when the teacher went over this in driver's ed. |
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ORMA Booster Member
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The January 19th NWO contained a letter from another ORMA teacher with the actual highway code. I don't have a paper copy of it, and since I'm new to the forum, I'm not sure if old NWO issues are archived online. But the teacher referred to several statutes indicating pedestrian right of way in a crosswalk. Obviously, I am a fellow teacher, not a lawyer, or (worse yet) a politician, so I am not 100% sure of the exact wording of the law, but it was pretty clear that pedestrians do have the right of way. ORMA is a little different from most school crosswalks, in that our property extends on both sides of the road, so technically, cars are driving on a public road through "our" property. As I stated in an earlier post, this has to do with the age of the school, and I doubt the state would ever reroute 150 to bypass the Academy. However, aside from the issue of right of way, drivers still need to obey the posted 25 mph zone, and pedestrians need to be more cautious. I did pass on a summary of everyones' suggestions to the Academy administration, including the idea of changing the school zone times, and they stated that they are looking into the entire crosswalk safety situation. When there are any updates or changes, I will post them here. Thank you again for your help and comments, and please spread the word to drive safely. |
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TCat Member 
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This thread has died down for a while but I wanted to see if I could bring it back up. More and more I am seeing 150 become dangerous from speeding (of course) and erratic nasty drivers. I would love to see some police presence on this road every once and a while. I'm sure they could clean up. With the 1 mile area between 68 and Bunch road being home to a major interesction, a school, a daycare (at the Methodist church), kids being dropped off and picked up for school and the almost blind turn, you would think the 35 mile an hour limit would be followed or more enforced. Anything we can do to bring more attention to the dangerous nature of this road and need to have speed limits enforced? Last edited on Apr 22nd, 2007 08:11 pm by TCat |
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WHE Member 
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Maybe this will help... § 20-155. Right-of-way. (c) The driver of any vehicle upon a highway within a business or residence district shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing such highway within any clearly marked crosswalk, or any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of the lateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block, except at intersections where the movement of traffic is being regulated by traffic officers or traffic direction devices. |
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Stonefree Member
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WHE -- Thanks for the information, although the letter of the law hasn't been the issue on this problem and that is what i felt was missed by the ORMA official. We all know that pedestrians have the right of way, and regardless of where they cross, vehicles should yeild and always be cautious. But the bigger problem is while most drivers try to help this situation none of the students/instructors that I see ever seem to make an effort to be safe. I had hoped ,with this forum and the notes in the paper about this problem, that it would get better, but i see the same disregard for safety of both themselves and motorists from the students/staff. My next step, I think, is to load up my video camera and throw it up on my dash when i run to the store, etc. Just turn it on in my driveway and go. That way i am not making the situation more dangerous by holding a camera but i can still document this situation so that people don't think i am taking crazy pills. Stonefree Last edited on May 1st, 2007 12:32 pm by Stonefree |
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macca Member
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Just had to log on to say I was driving past ORMA on Thursday afternoon, May 3, about 5:30 I guess (rainy, so not real light) and two cadets crossed 150 BETWEEN the two crosswalks....  |
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ORMA Booster Member
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Unforunately, I don't think there is any way to force every cadet and ORMA employee to use common sense when crossing the street. I would just be happy if the community would at least drive the posted speed limit. I can't understand how people think it's OK to drive so fast through a school zone. Some of these soccer moms, NWHS students and construction workers could give Dale Jr. a close race. Stonefree, if you want to get the video camera, go for it. I'll get a radar gun to clock the speeders, and between the two of us, maybe we can get both the pedestrians and the drivers to exercise caution. |
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macca Member
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ORMA Booster wrote:Unforunately, I don't think there is any way to force every cadet and ORMA employee to use common sense when crossing the street. I would just be happy if the community would at least drive the posted speed limit. I can't understand how people think it's OK to drive so fast through a school zone. Some of these soccer moms, NWHS students and construction workers could give Dale Jr. a close race. This may have been addressed before, but is there any way that the signs posting the speed limit/school hours could be more prominent? Most folks are not used to school zones/times being in place for most of the day. I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm just saying we have a lot of people moving here, just passing thru, etc. Of course, if we could get the Sheriff's department to sit there with their sign posting your speed, that might help. Or better yet, have them posted there writing tickets...... (BTW: I think the Town can request that those tracking signs be brought to their town....) |
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ORMA Booster Member
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Just wanted to remind everyone that ORMA summer school and summer camps are in session, so please drive safely. Students will continue to cross Highway 150 day and night throughout the summer, so don't let your caution go on vacation! |
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rasin Guest
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I always slow down even when the blinker isn't flashing. My main annoyance is with the staff, they seem to be the major offenders of not using the cross walks and even not looking. A few weeks ago what looked to be two staff member were carrying something together and they just walked right out into the road in-between the two crosswalks. They were walking at an angle so they could see traffic to the one direction but they didn’t look the other way until they were at the middle of the road. I had just enough space to slow down to allow them safe passage and that was going slower than the speed limit at the time. If I was going the speed limit it would have been a bit close. The students need to see that the rules apply to all and the staff would be helping a great deal if they set a good example. |
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