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EditorPS
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Posted: Oct 7th, 2005 11:26 pm |
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| The town is currently discussing the construction of a 10,000 sq. ft. facility to house a town hall, office space for employees, and meeting space for committee members and community groups. The cost is estimated at about $1 million. Do you think this would be a wise use of taxpayers' money?
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yvonne-57
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Posted: Oct 18th, 2005 10:29 pm |
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As the community grows, so do its needs for meeting space, administrative space and storage space for records/archives. BUT the town needs to look carefully and with common sense at any spending, just as an individual does when buying a house to fit his/her budget.
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zippitydoodah
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Posted: Oct 19th, 2005 03:44 pm |
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| You're right. On the other hand, does it make sense to always rent an apartment instead of buying a house? I think the town is throwing away money by renting space. Besides, the fire department really doesn't have adequate space for meetings when a lot of people attend. It would be nice to have a town hall, especially if the extra space might be used by the community for other functions. I think this is definitely something the town council should consider if they move forward.
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PhilMc
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Posted: Oct 29th, 2005 03:27 am |
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All the projects and suggestions sound great particularly if we could have them at no cost - but there is no such thing. They all cost something and will continue to cost more over time. It's a matter of what the citizens of Oak Ridge are willing to pay for now and in the future. There is no windfall sum of money out there that makes these projects free. There are only funds that properly belong to the taxpayers of Oak Ridge but are being held by the Town of Oak Ridge. How necessary it is to use those funds and for what purposes lays at the center of the controversy.
It is not right for the Town Council to assess taxes and accumulate wealth at the expense of taxpayers for things wanted and not clearly required to continue meeting the Town's current fiscal responsibilities. None of the projects proposed have a clear mandate from the citizens of Oak Ridge and until that is appropriately determined, the Town Council should immediately rebate the $3 million accumulated to the taxpayers and repeal taxes. Regardless of how the money was accumulated or where it came from, it belongs to the citizens of Oak Ridge - not the symbol Town of Oak Ridge. Only citizens should decide when, if, and how to spend discretionary tax and franchise-dependent dollars, not the Town Council. The Town Council's job is to administer and discharge routine functional government and otherwise to serve at the pleasure and to the will of it's citizenry.
Current and known future requirements can be met within the Town's current operating budget. Anything else is something that is wanted and must be supported by a majority consensus of those footing the bill. Town leadership resistance to establishing consensus sounds less like representative government and more like a benign coup of like-minded individuals who have the temporary power to achieve their common goals.
The Town Council should finally, fairly, and in a representative fashion, officially determine what projects if any the citizenry supports - and then move forward in the direction of the will of the taxpayers.
Last edited on Oct 29th, 2005 04:18 am by PhilMc
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zippitydoodah
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Posted: Oct 29th, 2005 01:29 pm |
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If the town repeals taxes and refunds the money they have accumulated, we might as well give up our town charter because the town will be broke. One of the reasons we incorporated in the first place was so we could decide what direction we wanted to go and not stay a part of the county or, worse yet, be annexed by Greensboro (the Greensboro city limit is just past where the Oak Ridge town limit ends on Highway 68). If we were annexed by Greensboro, do you think for a minute they would repeal taxes? No way!
For the most part, I think the town has done a great job. They have saved money but have started charging a reasonable property tax. I, for one, don't mind paying a reasonable tax if it means people in this town (not some stranger in Greensboro) can make the rules and decisions for us. I also don't want to pay a tax just for the sake of paying one. For that reason, I think it's time that the town start doing something with that money -- which is what they are trying to do. I hope they buy the property for a park, and I'm ready for a town hall too.
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PhilMc
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Posted: Oct 29th, 2005 02:10 pm |
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I don't disagree with your points other than the Town Council should follow some kind of popularly supported procedure that puts the cart before the horse - and then move on. The Capital Improvement Process could not have been followed since it came after the projects had been decided on and then not properly implemented after the fact insofar as determining popular support. Project commitee members support their particular projects and profess to Town Council that in their opinion the majority of taxpayers support them as well. The problem is they have no basis for their claims other than informal polls they conducted themselves. By my count, the best source of info that cuts across our community is provided by the NW Observer, and their published opinion polls indicate a split and clear concern about the processes that are being used.
Accumulating wealth at taxpayer expense without a popular mandate is simply out of order and wrong.
By charter, the Town Council has the authority to tax and spend at their discretion. What will be the special interests of the next Town Council and the ones after that?
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dwaror
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Posted: Oct 30th, 2005 03:05 am |
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I completely agree with Philmc in regard to the responsibilities of the OR Town Council. Where do they get their mandate to build the new Town Hall? I have not seen anyhing to solicit a taxpayer's opinion regarding the need for this new facility.
The NWO performed an unscientific sample of interviews, and published a fair and balanced feedback that there were an equal number of folks who commented for or against the new Town Hall. We should not assume that this survey was representative of the 3,000+ voters in Oak Ridge.
Though I have not met a single neighbor who is in favor of the new town hall,
I honestly don't know what the voting taxpayers think-
but then that is Philmc's point isn't it-
Neither do the members of the OR Town Council- without a solicitation of the taxpayer's opinions -
I think that this council is well intentioned and honestly believe they are doing the right thing, but:
I ask again: Where do they get their mandate to build a new Town Hall?
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dmhawv
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Posted: Nov 1st, 2005 01:15 am |
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I'll throw my name behind PhilMc and dwaror. I have great concern about the special interests leading the way and even further concern about the developers getting their way at the expense of the town's character. People, a few, are getting rich and I don't see them standing up with checks written to Oak Ridge to sponsor part of a Town Hall (if needed) or sponsoring parts of a community park, if constructed.
What about the Town Hall being in an historic house that could be renovated for the administrative and community needs? What about the Town Hall and a community center being under the same roof? What about all these new massive housing developments 1) providing required open space and 2) contributing a fixed ratio percentage of funds to the Capital Improvement budget?
I wonder what percentage of Oak Ridge voters have computer access and could participate in online polls. If that cannot be used as a tool, than the Capital Improvement Plan needs to be approved by majority vote.We are not developed enough as a Town with a working Council to have any assurance that special interests aren't making the decisions. Yes, the resident's need to speak their minds at meetings, but it is difficult to know what is on the Council's agenda. Much easier to read about what happened than to find out what is under discussion.
BTW, Greensboro didn't want Oak Ridge. The costs of supplying us with infrastructure was too high based on our location.
Last edited on Nov 1st, 2005 01:15 am by dmhawv
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Sportsfan
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Posted: Nov 2nd, 2005 06:26 pm |
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| Greensboro did not want us? Then why did they offer to supply water in the past if we surrendered our charter? Why did they oppose our incorporation? Having observed Guilford County for quite a number of decades, I can tell you that Greensboro wants everything they can get their hands on. The only greedier city is Kernersville. Mayor Swisher once sent Greensboro a letter stating that Kville wanted to annex all of Greensboro. The GNandR even ran a copy. Face it, Oak Ridge is a desirable place to live, always has been. For decades, people have talked about trying to have a central place to meet and conduct community affairs and business. A Town Hall for continued future use is hardly a new plan. From reading the NWO for the past few years, I believe that the Town has been trying to come up with a solution and has budgeted money for a Town Hall since Bill Parrish was Mayor. I do not attend all of the meetings, but I read all of the papers and to say that this has not been thought out and is not the will of the people is wrong. The people have had input for years and through several elections to state their preferences and it appears to me they have. I do not know about Capital plans and procedures and why you all are so hung up on them. The procedures that were laid out by the CIP folks and adopted as reported in the NWO appear to me to be followed to the letter by the council so far. This is an investment in the future. Once you have researched an investment, you need to proceed and buy. Otherwise you will dawdle and second guess until the opportunity passes then all you have are regrets over what could have been.
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dwaror
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Posted: Nov 3rd, 2005 01:56 am |
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To Sportsfan
We are "hung up" on CIP because it is our money that is being spent and the town should be run as a business.
I would be interested in discovering the full extent of the things that you discussed. Did, in fact, all the citizens of Oak Ridge have an opportunity to voice their approval of current expenditures to build a "Million Dollar Town Hall"? If so, when and how were we solicited? I assure you that if this plan was fully discussed and approved by the majority of the citizens of Oak Ridge, I will completely support it.
If not, why not?
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Sportsfan
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Posted: Nov 3rd, 2005 07:40 pm |
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By my observation the town is being run like a business. Lots of people serve on the committees and from my observations and readings the CIP plan that the town started is being followed. I am rather proud of all of the folks that have volunteered to serve and be active in the different areas of the town government. Lots of them have experience and business skills that they are contributing to the Town. Their recommendations appear to be well thought out and reasonable.
Public hearings will be held according to a member of the CIP committee. And as I have stated before, the meetings of the town and all of the committees are open to the public as far as I know. I know from past years that all of the projects have been talked about at budget time. If memory serves me right, I believe that there is one big public budget hearing each year and a second smaller one for the final vote. If a person is too lazy to go and give input or share a concern or even read the NWO to keep up with local events, do you really want that person to make a decision?
The council has a duty to answer to the people, but the people have a duty to participate and be informed. The council cannot govern by opinion polls or putting every decision to a popular vote. I trust who I vote for to do their best or the do not get my vote. That is how the citizens ultimately give input even if they fail to take advantage of all of the other public opportunities to be heard.
Sportsfan
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dwaror
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Posted: Nov 4th, 2005 12:12 am |
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To assume that one is too lazy or disinterested in attending council meetings, is an insult to many folks who do not have the opportunity to attend because of work or travel or health or a lot of other reasons. Their absence does not imply lack of concern for the issues facing our community.
In all of your replies, you have failed to answer the one question that I have repeatedly asked, "Where did we get a mandate to build a new city hall?". I can only assume that you cannot answer that because-
They didn't.
Why not now? Put it to a vote- I'll support the majority.
Thanks for the paragraphs, it's much easier to understand your responses.
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S. Smith
Moderator
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Posted: Nov 25th, 2005 12:03 pm |
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It is our understanding from the N.C. General Counsel is that you cannot use the ballot to collect advisory opinions unless the N.C. General Assembly votes to allow a special election (something they rarely do).
So how should the town council find out what the people of the town want?
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dwaror
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Posted: Nov 26th, 2005 06:10 am |
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How can the Town Council find whether the community is behind the construction of a new town hall? That is a refreshing question and I hope they find a way. They authorized a survey for the park and I have not seen any conclusive evidence as to whether the response was representative of the community. Those in favor probably sent their response back with full affirmation of the project. I don't know if that survey really measured our desire for the park or not. How many responses were there?
Personally, I'd vote for the park over the Town Hall.
The real problem appears to be voter apathy- with only 600+ voting out of 3000+ elgible voters in the council elections, it seems that many people really don't care what happens to their tax dollars. I do, and my concern is that property taxes were collected and then projects were identified to spend the money.
Many folks have suggested ways to qualify projects for the future and I hope those processes work. It's unfortunate that the new town hall project didn't get the scrutiny it should have. My question has continually been- How did they determine that we as a community needed a milllion dollar facility? Were any other options discussed? Is anyone thinking of ways to reduce our taxes? Or are they looking for new ways to spend increased taxes?
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EditorPS
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Posted: Nov 26th, 2005 01:44 pm |
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dwaror wrote: They authorized a survey for the park and I have not seen any conclusive evidence as to whether the response was representative of the community. Those in favor probably sent their response back with full affirmation of the project. I don't know if that survey really measured our desire for the park or not. How many responses were there?
I believe the town got approximately a 38 percent response from the survey it mailed, which is about the highest I've ever heard on a mailed survey (these results will be shared at the Dec. 1 council meeting). With that said, 62 percent of the people in Oak Ridge households still didn't voice their opinion.
Regarding putting a capital improvement project on the ballot, I'm afraid that you would get far less than a 38 percent turnout if you did. As you've pointed out, the voter turnout in the last election was only a very small percentage of eligible voters (I agree with your comment that this reflects apathy). If you asked the same people who were surveyed to come out to a voting precinct on a specific day and cast a ballot, you'd be doing great to get 25 percent. Most people just wouldn't take the time to vote, some would intend to and then forget, some would be sick, it would be a hassle for those who are disabled or elderly and can't easily get out to the polls, etc. etc.
I've often wondered just how you do get the concensus of the citizens. If surveys mailed to the home, public meetings, opportunities to contact town hall and express opinions by phone, e-mail, etc., and putting it on a ballot don't do it, what will? Democracy can only work if people participate in the process.
Last edited on Nov 26th, 2005 01:50 pm by EditorPS
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